Fan - Fan is Fan

Visual Art Designer: Jewellery, Clothes, Interiors, Photographer & Painter

Interview on 26th September 2015 at Cafe Zarah

Translation by Sammi, Operations Manager of Culture Yard

TF: So how did your passion for fashion start?

F: It's something I was born with. Now I'm 46 years old but when I was young there were no magazines and no movies and no cassettes. Nothing, so I was cut out from the outside world. So I saw these nice clothes in the movies and I would take the padding from my father's suit and put something together myself. So basically, I put the padding in my sweater because that's how I wanted it to be and later I discovered that all the sweaters in style were like that at that time so that's why I feel that it was something I was born with. I was born with good taste. So I drew lots of inspiration from movies, Japanese movies and old Chinese iconic movies.

TF: Do you still feel that you draw your inspiration from those types of movies or has your inspiration changed?
F: Now I'm very much inspired by each and every relationship that I've ever had. Any art is emotional, an expression of emotion. So I feel that there are no rules in art, it's just emotion and expression of each individual's feelings and emotions.

TF: When you're designing, who do you feel like you're designing for?

F: It's very complicated. The clothes that you see in my store, I imagine myself as a woman and what kind of clothes I would like to wear as a woman. As a Chinese lady, what kind of clothes I'd like to wear, if I'm a curvy Chinese lady, a skinny Chinese lady, what kind of clothes I would like to wear.

TF: Is that across all ages as well?

F: It's not commercial. It's kind of the reason I stay in Beijing. I think now I've realised that people are always going after things they will never get. I wish I could be a woman. Because I wanted to be a woman but I'm not so I'm kind of changing everything about me that's a man into a more female side. Like I spent 10,000 RMB on this wig. So in life I feel like, if you have the courage, if you have the skills, then you will feel very fulfilled.

TF: That's really beautiful. It seems like a lot of the art that you do is an exploration of the self and the development of the self. How important do you think that it is to explore the self through art?

F: I think this is art. Art is self. Every transformation, innovation and development in art, it's all an expression of one's self. Art comes from everyone's... it's kind of an expression of one's mind and like her [translator Sammi] lipstick reminds me of a new wound oozing blood. But that's just his idea, maybe for someone else it's a different thing. I'd use it for a buckle on a shirt or some kind of accessory like a necklace. And then the name of this collection could be qin yue [侵越] - Invasion. I would design a whole collection of accessories, like a bag, like a necklace and bracelet.

TF: And this is inspired by her lipstick?

F: Yes, inspired by her lipstick.

TF: Wow, so this is an example of a new relationship inspiring you?

F: Yes. But all the shapes would be kind of hard and cold, not very soft.

TF: Recently I saw on your Weixin that you posted a lot of photographs that I guess inspire you and some of them seem to be quite dark. For example with these kind of restraining, just dark images. Why is that something that you find beautiful?

F: I don't see them as dark because I don't have a dark side. I seek inspiration from sex. For me I think coitus is like the ultimate form of energy. Everything comes from it. To me, I think this is very dark. I see a very clean, nicely dressed woman and then I imagine her having sex with a very fat, filthy man. Her moaning and everything, I think that's very dark.

TF: I like the whole thing you were talking about to do with art and the self, and is that how the self-photography and the self-portraits came in? When did that start and why did you start to document yourself?

F: My father is a photographer and he would always ask me to help him in, you know the dark room where they develop the films?

TF: Yes.

F: My father would always ask me to help. That's how I started. So basically for my father to teach me how to do photography, how to take photos, my father said, That is not something that I can teach. You have to do it by yourself. So my father gave me a camera. And I started to take pictures and I discovered that the things that I saw were completely different from what I would see through the camera. And then I started to learn how to observe everything through the camera instead of using my eyes.

TF: So can you show us some of the photos you have taken of yourself and explain how you do it because they seem to be quite distant shots? So do you have equipment or is somebody assisting you?

F: My pictures are an expression of my depression and emotions. So I bought all this stuff and was walking on the street holding these dolls and walking in the dark on Gulou Street and everyone thought I was hilarious weird and quirky.

TF: Of course!

F: These photos are recording my life. Like flowers, I take lots of photos of flowers. Sad flowers, sexy flowers, flowers in the bathroom, my daughter (a doll). A picture of me peeing.

TF: So, for example, the self-portrait of you as [Salvador] Dali and the self-portraits of you as Frida Kahlo, I really like. How do you choose the artists that you want to represent in your photos?

F: I have specific taste. Very uniform. I really like Dali, I really like Coco Chanel. I think they are the same type of people.

TF: And this, what's in here? These are photos of your clothes?

F: This is my sister.

TF: These are all clothes that you've designed?

F: Yes, in 2013.

TF: Have you ever, I mean I know you have a store in Beiluoguxiang but have you ever displayed any of your photography, sold any of your clothes in any other places in Beijing?

F: No. I'm afraid of meeting new people and socialising. I think I'm very lazy, I don't really want to force myself into anything. I like what I like, and what I don't like I reject. Some kind of photographers and magazines have approached me asking for an interview but if I don't feel like it, I don't do it. My dream is to find someone who loves me and I love and to spend the rest of our lives together. And it's not art, I just want to find this person. To find love. My favourite thing to do ever since childhood is to put stamps on postcards or a cashier at the supermarket.

TF: That's amazing! Considering that, thank you so much for meeting with us. We really appreciate it. Loreli is very much about the artists representing themselves in the way they want to be portrayed. So your clothes, your photography, your design, how would you like to portray them to the world?

F: I don't really want to make it too complicated, maybe it's better to keep it about one theme – me and my life in Beijing and some pictures of me walking past Beiluoguxiang. Don't make it over-complicated would be great and me and my life. You can write anything you want as long as it's true. These are pictures that show my definition of art.

TF: Where is this, and why do you take photos in this particular hutong?

F: Beiluoguxiang. Because it is spontaneous and, for me, art is all about spontaneity. It doesn't have to have much preparation as long as it's a reflection of my inner state. And for me that's art.

TF: Does he feel inspired by the environment of his store? The hutongs and that area.

F: No. I would draw inspiration from really, really old stuff. Old buildings and those kind of run down places like the Forbidden City. But not the city because I like conflicting things, things in contrast. Like a really old door and a vase lying on the street that someone has thrown out. Something like that. People go to Paris, France and take pictures of famous tourist attractions and they take great pictures, beautiful pictures. The first time I went to Paris I took a picture of the corner of a dirty, filthy street at sunset. There was a pair of red shoes, the heels had come off. So I took a picture of those two shoes and they were scattered around and the house was only this part and lots of water. And for me, that's Paris. The shoes told me a story, a story of a very, very sad woman who was unhappy, who was abandoned. People ask me, Why is this Paris to you? And I say, the house in the picture is Parisian style and the shoes, the shape of the shoes, you can only see them in Paris.

TF: That's really beautiful. It tells a story.

F: Yes, of abandoned women. So art is just how I see things not how other people see things, like how her red lipstick inspired me for the collection, the wound oozing blood and I think her face should be paler. Her hair should be darker. And I would like to see her in black clothes. Something very, very big, not tight, very oriental. Something that sets her free.

TF: So is this something that you do when you meet other woman especially, you kind of see how you would want them to be seen and does that go into your designs?

F: I'm using my years of experience and my artistic view and telling you, this is what you should be. I think red would suit you (Charlotte) really well.

TF: Red clothes or red lipstick?

F: You are a very warm person but then you have this very free and wild side. Once you fall in love you will be very family bound. If you don't love this person, you would not force yourself.

TF: It's like a therapy session for us.

F: (To Kassy) In relationships you'd like to be in control, you don't want to lose your control. If you don't think you've got this, you can't handle this, you would stop. You won't keep moving forward.

TF: There’s such a great range of pictures for us to use...

F: I'll send you lots and lots of pictures. I don't really want to be addressed as man or woman. I am who I am.

TF: You mentioned that you want to find true love forever, how is that reflected in your past relationships?

F: That's my dream but I think it's unattainable.

TF: Why?

F: Because I think we always fall in love with the ideal other half but that never happens in real life. When I see you I think you're a very sweet person and, for me, I picture you as this sweet personality but you might not be like that. That's just my impression but in reality you might be completely different. You might be cold and mean. So that's why I think love is unattainable, you can't imagine it, you can't picture it. It is what it is. I think for me right now the most valuable thing in life is feeling the things around you. Like right now being in the moment. And to live without a goal. For example what I mean, even if you don’t publish this interview I would think it's still very beautiful because it's in the moment, we've done what we've done. It doesn't really matter if you publish it or not.  Because I've had the opportunity to meet you and I really like you and for me that's enough. It doesn't really matter if you publish the article on the website or not. For me this has been an amazing experience.

TF: For us too.

F: There's an old saying in Chinese, I don't really know if there's an English equivalent, I'm gonna try, if you have a talent sooner or later you'll show it. But it's up to me if I want to show it to the public or not. For me the happiest thing that I've found out about life is that you feel happy in the moment. Yes.

TF: Do you feel art is a way to expressing your perception of the world because it's not something that you can put on to other people? Is it a way that you can express what you see?

F: No. For me it's all spontaneous, there's no reason, like today I feel like I need to put on this wig, it doesn't even make me comfortable but I just feel like it. I might say, This guy is not my type, I would never go out with this guy, and then you go to a bar later and then you see someone like that and immediately you hit it off. You don’t know anything about this guy and then you just fall in love with him. You want to hug him, you want to do something with him. So one day I dressed up, I looked really pretty and two foreigners asked me, Why do you want to go to a bar? And I said, I want to get fucked. And they said, Fan, your English is very cool. So every time they see me they say, Ooh, maybe fuck. [laughs]

Amtattoo – The Skin Beneath Our Stories

Tattoo Artist

Interview on Saturday 10th October 2015 at North Capital

TF: The reason I approached you in the first place is because I saw your graffiti mural outside Beiluo Bread Bar and I was like, woah, that's fricking cool, so I went in and asked them who did it and they gave me your contact. So can you talk to me about that mural? What inspired it?

AM: Actually that picture, I saw a graffiti artist, that's actually his original work. I really, really do love the colour contrast and everything so I remember, in my mind, to sketch it down, I really wanted to do it because I really like his work. That idea just came from that. So the idea is not mine, actually, but I do really like his work. So I thought, it’s something to light up the hutong, I told him let's do this thing. So I just started to do all of this.

TF: Awesome! So yours is the chameleon section, right?

AM: Yeah, that's right.

TF: So have you done more graffiti around Beijing?

AM: I've did but I think they've replaced it. I didn't really take a photo or anything because it was just a quick shot. I started it when I was in school, around 2003, so now I do some wall paintings for cash. So in Gulou, there's a bar, I think it's still there, it's near DADA next to the entrance gate. The coffee bar on the second floor, I did a whole wall when I was 23. So that was a really long time ago. That one is still there.

TF: Is it inside or outside?

AM: Inside. You can see butterflies changing colour contrast. I still have my name on it. Yeah, hopefully they still have it.

TF: Was that something that you made originally?

AM: Yes. That was an original because that bar was like, the original people who ran it, the whole thing, DADA and the whole building belonged to them. So the bar also belonged to them but after many years they thought it cost too much money so that's why they sold it. They moved out and then it was some kind of restaurant and now it's a café many years after.

TF: When you were doing graffiti in Beijing, did you have any specific artwork that was your signature or you did just whatever you felt like?

AM: No. I just felt like, because I discovered I liked colour, and I really liked the contrast so when I'd do it I'd just put everything together and play with it. Sometimes it was abstract and sometimes it was meaningful, like something I'd been thinking about.

TF: And how does it feel for you knowing that those paintings are possibly going to be painted over?

AM: I don't really care. I just thought at that moment that I want to do it, did it and I don't really care if it's painted over. I mean if it's painted over I can paint it again.

TF: What do you think about graffiti in terms of the legality of it? Do you think it should be legal?

AM: I hope so. In China it's really hard. Like maybe you'll go under a bridge or something and, because you are causing trouble, maybe people will chase you. So I did have a few friends and I almost get caught when we were in school, we were running really, really hard with a policeman trying to catch us. But I know they're not going to harm us at all but we were just running for fun. Yay, chase us!

TF: I am really interested in the fact that you're also a tattoo artist, these are two sort of unconventional forms of art and also fairly modern things that are being recognised more and more as art now. So how long have you been a tattoo artist?

AM: I started a really long time ago but I've been doing this for three years, more or less. Maybe a little bit longer – four years. The reason I'm doing this, I don't know, it just happened. I mean, I love drawing, that's never gonna stop for me, but before with graffiti, you're a free spirit when you do it but also graffiti has rules when you draw, when you paint. Like how to show it better from different sides, that's an artist at work. But for me, it was years and years ago when I was a student in school, I just thought, I really like this colour or this idea on the wall, I think. I wanna do big things so that is really free spirited, in that moment. And the reason I became a tattoo artist is because a tattoo is a different thing, it requires skill, it's not just about drawing skill, another skill is: your mental skills, how do you think, how you put things together, and third, another skill is tattooing skill. So those skills combine a lot of your energy and focus and make me calm. So make all the free spirit will come back to the one thing when you calm down. It's just like age, when you get older and older, you feel like you're calming down and then you settle. Tattooing makes me feel that way. Also, you can create free spirit tattoos because I saw different tattoo artists at their work and doing illustrations. Like their illustrations they're doing for a tattoo, like for a different part of the body, so for me, I did a lot of research and study on this before I did a tattoo so I know it requires a lot of things. I'm actually working even harder than when I was a student. You know Chinese students work so hard to get past the competition so I just felt like I worked even harder and now I study even more. Even when my friends ask me to hang out or have a drink, I'll say, yeah cool, but after half an hour I'll say, sorry, I really have to go. It's not like I'm tired and it's not like I'm bored with my friends, I have to go home to study.

TF: So why do you feel that way?

AM: I want to.

TF: So it's just your passion?

AM: Yes. I've found something I really, really love. It's awesome. So, I think three years ago, I started finding for myself those kinds of ideas, so I thought, I really love this, is this what I was really, really looking for - this is my career, this is my life and I'm gonna do it. It's never gonna stop until you know everything. These kinds of ideas – how to put it into a drawing first, how to make the drawings different and freestyle and put your ideas in it. And then, what the client wants and which part of their body they want it on. I want to learn to do that, to put it on the drawing on the part of the body so it will turn out perfectly. Learning why this one is so beautiful and this one is not. This all comes from research. Also learning about skin the medical way. My family is doing Chinese medicine but it didn't really help me but, for some other things, they taught me about, muscles and acupuncture and how they work. So when I'm doing tattoos, I only started recently, when you tense, it is gonna to help the permanence of the tattoo and will then colours come up right? This is actual new for me and I did ask some really good tattoo artists and they'd never heard of this. I find it quite interesting, it's maybe something I want to know. So that's why I want to put more and more energy into it.

TF: How do you study these different areas of tattoo art?

AM: I don't think there are classes or lessons in the world but you can find really good artwork from artists profiles. So find the one you like and learn it. The way of learning is – look, and second, try to copy their work and write it down and see what're the tricks. Because tattoo artists, we're all doing the same, so we've done the drawing a thousand times, more times than that. I've been doing drawing for what seems like forever, more than ten years now. So I know when they do drawings, why are they doing that? This part should be like this. Why this line has to be blurred. So, copy their work and doing more sketches and practising follow their work every day. Every single update they do, have a look, and if possible, if you have a problem or a question, asking that question so they can answer it, if not, find a way to figure out what they do.

TF: That's really interesting. You evolved from your youthful self who was into graffiti and as you're getting older you're going into tattoos and you seem super passionate about it. You talked a little bit about how people come to you with an idea and then you develop it, how much freedom do you have or does it depend on the person?

AM: To be honest, it depends on the client. Some clients come in with their ideas like they already have the picture so I'll try my best to convince them to change a little bit. You don't want the same tattoo on everyone's body. So I try to convince them how to make it look better but also be a similar idea. This is one type of client. One type of client will come in with a story. I love this type of client. That's the tattoo part, right? You come in with a story and we picture it and then make it a different thing. I love that but I don't get that a lot. A client comes in and has a story that they tell me, so I'm picturing and I'm drawing it and I say, hey, I was thinking, how would it look on your body, blah blah blah blah, and they say, this is what I really want, or, maybe not and then I change. And clients that have an idea of the type of tattoo work that they like, for example black and grey, watercolour or dot, line, which is different, old school, new school, this is what they want. Then they say, I want this, okay, and I'll say what do you want, arm or leg it's different. What sort of concept do you like? They'll give me something. I want a circle, I want a cat. And then I have ideas to work on the different style and the different concept of the drawing.

TF: What's the usual timeframe from when they come to you with an idea and you sketch it before you actually tattoo?

AM: Because we now are all by reservation only, so all the clients, they can come in and we can talk about it or they can chat with me over WeChat about the idea, but because I'm already booked for my time, so I will tell them when is a good time and during that time I will tell them when I start on their drawings.

TF: Are there certain parts of the body that are more challenging to tattoo on?

AM: There are some parts I would never do. Like for me, it's their private parts, never, never. No. I don't think I'd do that, it's just more purist for me, like when people ask you to do something on their face or more challenging, I'd have to say, depends on where it's gonna go and also, like private parts I'm not sure I want to do that. It's not like it's not a pure thing, like showing your artwork. The skin is more like a canvas.

TF: You really have a diverse range of tattoos in your portfolio. You do some coloured tattoos, you do some really intense shading tattoos and then some simple linear tattoos. What's the difference when you are doing different styles of tattoos?

AM: Because right now I only have three years experience, I would love to try all of the different styles to find the one I'm really interested in and then become an expert. So there is not really a difference only for your mind. So if I find the one I'm really, really looking for and I want it, I might be more interested and work really fast. But others it might be a tattoo skill but my mind skills I might need to work on more so I might have to do a lot of research before I design it. This is kind of like the difference.

TF: Are you leaning towards anything yet? Do you have a preference?

AM: Right now I prefer the coloured or black or grey. I choose black and grey for now but I do love coloured. The coloured I just have specific things I want to do. Not like I want to do new school or old school design but I do have specific colours I want to do. But right now I'm focused on black and grey. So with black and grey also the concept is going to be different for me. I'm leaning toward Chinese traditional characters and styles. Recently lots of clients have been coming to me for black and grey and they have a concept about characters and also they like patterns on their feet or on their arm. I'm Chinese and China has a way longer history of those things so I realised those things can become my idea for the design but I'm using lines and black and grey shapes to fill in the style and change this. So I really want to change this so it becomes much more... I'm still working on it. I haven't really finished it.

TF: So what's the longest tattoo you've ever had to do in one sitting?

AM: To be honest, I can do eight hours. But it wasn't only for one person. In the morning I started at ten and I finished at eleven-thirty but I didn't stop. I didn't eat from ten till eleven-thirty. But I did six people. For one person, the longest is five hours because your skin already starts biting so the colours are not taking because your skin is going “aaaargh!” And you start bleeding and the blood can make the colours not take. Five hours is the top. I've never asked a client to do over five hours.

TF: You mentioned before how you really like Chinese characters but I also noticed in some of your photos that you have done tattoos in other languages as well. What are the languages you have done?

AM: Yes. You know Chinese people are really fascinated about different languages which have different meaning. From Greek, or Portuguese they think they have mystery or power for Chinese people. The language has power. So they find it online because always when we are learning some new language, how do you say, for example, “like father, like son” that everybody knows. Sayings. So people choose the sayings in Chinese that everybody knows and they think in another language it seems really powerful.

TF: How do you go about learning to write another language? Do you memorise it or do you research it as well?

AM: Research. You have to do research. It's better if clients come with their own languages they want to do, like different ones so I don't have to check it again because they have to make sure it's the right one. I don't think I have time to research everything. But I still manage to draw something. Drawing is our thing, it’s what they're paying for, not the language. I can't help them with that.

TF: When you were in school what kind of art did you study?

AM: Jewellery design.

TF: How does that relate to what you're doing now?

AM: They're all creative things. Because in China we have a different way, or maybe it's the same, before we go to college we have to pass a test, we're special so we have to go to different high school to study art. To study drawing and painting, water colour and everything. And then we have three different tasks about sketching, some creative design and we have to pass the test and go to college and apply. Yes, at this school fashion design was top so I talked with my teacher, and this must have happened for a reason, me and another girl we both are in the top of the class, so the girl was like she was applying for fashion design, she said, did you actually think of applying? Of these three tasks one of them you're not the top at she is actually better than you, if you apply for fashion design you're gonna lose. They're totally gonna pick her. So she advised me to choose something else. Jewellery design looked cool so I thought let's do it. And I passed the test so I think it was maybe just because of her.

TF: Did you enjoy it?

AM: The jewellery? I loved it. It was so much fun. So you learn so much about things like handmade things. We did about a week of study about jewellery about diamonds and silver and gold how to melt them and how to put them together and use design to make it look better. Original things. I did well in the first year, you know in China the jewellery design companies we've got, they are all copies from different countries' design. I hate that and they paid me so little. I was like, I want to make my original idea, why won't you let me?

You're not good enough.

Okay, I quit. I don't want to do this.

So I did my designs. I did drawing for one year and I just sell them. You know in Shunyi there are a bunch of houses with rich people living in them from other countries whose husbands are working in China so I sell to them. They loved it.

TF: How did you get from there to do tattoo art and graffiti art?

AM: I started drawing when I was six so I always wanted to fulfill my childish dreams. I dream a lot when I was sleeping so I was drawing it down like a cartoon. Like even watch it later or something. The passion was not finished so I just felt, I don't want to go down so after I quit my job I started painting every day. I'd work like six jobs a day, six part-time jobs, from morning till end and I'd go home and I'm painting and painting and painting. Then one day someone said I wanna sign. So I did two years exhibition with this gallery, sold some and got some money but my mum got really sick and I had to go home. Later when I came back, everything changed. So I did some assistant work to save some money to make my mum feel like I have a stable job. She passed away last year. After that, actually I already did it before she passed away, but I didn't tell her because Chinese people think the tattoo is really something so bad. Painting has never stopped for me so I'm still doing painting and exhibitions and things with friends and some galleries. The tattoo was just one time I was having a conversation with my friend and he said, Hey your drawing is so good, so amazing, I love your drawings. Why don't you draw on me? And I did draw on him and he said, Why don't you become a tattoo artist? This is awesome! I love your work on my body. So I free-styled on his body and then we went to a club, this is one story, another friend of mine, I drew on her body and we went to the club and this one girl comes up to her and says, Your tattoo is amazing! And she said, Oh really? My friend here drew it but it's not real it's just a drawing. So she said that and then that guy said, Why don't you become a tattoo artist? So I said, Oh yeah, cool. I'd never thought about that so I did a lot, a lot of research and also about when tattoos started in China and how the market is now so are people still wanting tattoos and why are people wanting to be tattooed. So I did a lot of research then bam, I just did it.

TF: So how did you think tattoos and the way people perceive tattoos is evolving?

AM: I don't know about other countries because they're not developing countries they're moving faster but, you know China is really growing fast recently. Chinese people started to realise that something is really important to them, like part of them. Like some Chinese people still think a tattoo is fashion, it's cool. Hey! I have a tattoo. Hey what's up, man? It's like it's fashion or something, I'm so cool. So part of that and partly people started to realise it's something I want to keep forever, that's changing.

TF: How do you hope that it will change? How do you want people to see it in the future?

AM: In the future, I don't have a big vision for the big picture I just hope people could get their stories on their skin and you go to a different country and you tell people, Hey this is one thing I did in a different country. Actually something happened, so I did this tattoo, I hated it now but still it's a memory. So this is what I hope people will do – is keep it as a memory. I don't like people coming and saying, I don't know what I'm doing but I'm here???

TF: Have you ever done any of your own tattoos on your own body?

AM: This is the one I did.

TF: Is it difficult to do?

AM: It's difficult to do it on yourself, like I have friends who hold onto my arms because the skin needs something to hold it so I'm really tight to do it. But I will do on my legs because that's easier.

TF: Do you have a favourite of your own that you've done on someone else or on yourself?

AM: Yeah, I do. My friend is leaving China, he's my favourite guy and he's leaving, I'm so sad. His body is filled with mostly my tattoos and that style is kind of like more drawing and looking for in the picture and drawing more and shading. This one, this is the peacock I did for him and also the merman I did it on him maybe half a year ago.

TF: So what is it that you love about this one? Oh, he's cute!

AM: He's really cute. He's gay. So if you can use the line to show the layers and people use the shading to show the layers but actually lines and dots can show the layers too. And also, right now I only use black but in the future I want to use grey to also show the space and layers. To show it's depth so I'm trying to figure out how to do it on the body because right now I still do drawings and when I figured out how to do it on the body it looks cool.

TF: I've seen some articles about 3D tattoos that are becoming more popular now. Is that the kind of thing that you're looking at?

AM: No. That's something different. I mean I could do a 3D tattoo. It's looks really difficult but it's not that hard. It's just about shading different and also, when you draw something, usually when you draw lines you think it's only on one dimension. [starts drawing] But when you do this or this, maybe one or maybe two, right? So lines can show more difference and 3D works like, this is one but I'll show you how to do this and then this. So when I do shading here it's darker so it's behind. I do maybe light or black so this is in the front and this is way behind so this is called 3D. This is how 3D works – the shading and the line work and also the drawing records the lines, the things close to you are more clear so the lines have to be more strong in front of you. The other lines behind, you may see or not. It's more detailed, there're more things that you're looking at. So I like these new things more than 3D. I want to work on this more in the future and it may be one of my things.

TF: You were talking before about how you had painting exhibitions but you also mentioned that you have a new one coming out?

AM: Yeah, This should come up soon but they are worried about if they cannot sell any so they're actually working on the selling now so they're taking all of our work and printed a book to sell it to the buyers and if all the buyers decided to buy all of it, then they can put it into the gallery.

TF: Do you know which galleries and when?
AM: In Caochangdi but I don't know which gallery now because they're still trying to figure out which gallery they are going to use.

TF: What are the paintings you submitted to this one about?

AM: This one is called Chinese Medicine. This is the one I did for them because they asked for one from one hundred artists so I only did one. This exhibition was supposed to happen earlier but it didn't. There's a girl in this picture, the character I was working on for an exhibition I did a long, long time ago was kind of similar.

TF: So she's someone that you've painted over many, many years?

AM: Many, many years.

TF: Who is she to you? Is she just a character that you've created?

AM: In China we have this person, it's a wise person. He is, I don't know if it's real but, in the history he's a really wise men, in North Korea, long, long, long, long time ago. He knows earth, ground and people, animals, he knows everything because his eyes are like this. His eyeballs are like this because he can see everything around him so this is the story. So I used this idea, I wanted my girl to be a really wise girl. She's little, she's little, fragile and innocent but you're wise. She knows what's going on. That's why all the girls I did with eyes stretched from the different sides. If we did this, we can't do this. So this is how I represent this character.

TF: And what organs is she holding? Kidneys?

AM: I think it's lungs.

TF: Why did you choose that?

AM: You know, they gave me the Chinese medicine thing to talk about the plants and the plants made me think about cigarettes. You know you can use growing things to put in cigarettes so these leaves you can use plants to make your organs fresh. Chinese medicine is really warm to help the organs work better. Heat and also yin yang helps that so I think the Wetsern way is to use a machine to check the numbers of the body. Chinese, we test the pulse to feel the blood and feel the yin or yang, cold or warm they try to balance the body. So I wanted to try to say, like the balance in nature, you can balance your organs inside and outside you can balance.

TF: They came to you and asked you to do Chinese medicine?

AM: They told me the idea is Chinese medicine.

TF: Because your parents are involved in Chinese medicine, right?

AM: Yeah, but I never learned.

TF: That's funny that it happened like that.

AM: It's coincidence.

TF: I was wondering, when you were a child was there a time when you knew that you wanted to be an artist?

AM: I didn't even know that art was a thing. When I was a child I just liked drawing. I think what I do remember, I'm always drawing. And then funny things happened to my grandmother and when I draw, draw, draw, my mum says, Don't draw everywhere. There was like empty wall and she came and she'd paint in the morning and then I'd draw on it again.

TF: You're just a little graffiti artist.

AM: It's true. Pretty much every day. When she told this story to my grandmother, she said, Oh it's fine, the paper and pencils are not going to cost so much as a piano. But who knew, after a couple of years when I tried to get into college it actually cost a lot of money.

TF: You said that you went back home, where is home to you?

AM: My hometown is in Shanxi, Datong.

TF: Do you feel like, because you're not from Beijing but you live in Beijing and I saw in your photos that you do a lot of travelling as well, do you feel like places influence your art like where you grew up or Beijing or places you've visited?

AM: Yeah. Definitely. They've given me a lot of inspiration. My hometown gave me some inspiration from stories. It's like Beijing but more calm. The people I know are really, really Chinese people. Just like they're not really that open in international ways. They just grow up and go to a better school, get a job, get married and have kids and live happily ever after. You get a really warm side but I'm not really old-fashioned enough to join their path. Beijing you have more opportunity. They're open to you. You can talk to them about how people are different, from a different world. And you listen to them, they give me a story and inspiration. So different places definitely give you more ideas. And also, I love when people tell me more about things, like last year, my friend gave me some idea about Chicago and I think, What is this Chicago? Is it important to me? So if I go to new city, I like to ask, What is it about this city? What do you think is representative of this city? It's like, when I see you, I'm curious about who you are. I'm curious because you've got great hair.

TF: [laugh] We do have great hair. You talk about how you dedicate so much of your time to researching tattoos, so how much time do you dedicate to the paintings?

AM: Recently I don’t have that much time because I need to earn money so I spend more time tattooing clients though every week I paint at least one day. Doing the painting then finishing over the rest of this month. I try to use every month to try to get one done. If I start with bigger ones than maybe two or three months.

TF: How do you think tools influence your art? Like your sketch pencil, you tattoo with a tattoo pen and you paint with a brush.

AM: I love tools! This is endless. This is so different of course, like with painting you use watercolours and Chinese watercolours or some other material, and with your painting you can choose whatever you want to use, right? But with tattoos you only have one option. But tattoos and painting are different. With painting you can free-style. If you feel like using watercolours then some oils and see what happens and after, it's like, Cool, now I'll do the next one. But with tattoos it's not like this. It's one thing forever. When I'm doing drawings it's the same thing. This one and then that's it. When you're painting you can use other things too because sometimes I use salt and candy. When you melt the salt it can suck the oil and you can make it a different colour. It's really cool. So my friend told me, the oil he used with fire, you can burn it first with a candle. You burn it first then mix together the melted colour and you can mix melted colours together and spill it on the canvas. It's beautiful. This is something you can't do with a tattoo.

TF: So these are the kind of tools you can play with, right?

AM: I use different tools too, but when I see different artists at work doing paper cuts or whatever, sometimes I give myself just one hour or two hours to play with the tools. The paper, the scissors or when I see people's work and want to use other materials to copy that work so, in my mind, I get excited.

TF: How do you feel the different mediums of art that you do influence each other? The jewellery design then painting and graffiti then tattoos, do you think they influence each other or are they separate?

AM: It's separate and also together. They all influence each other because it's all my inner working things. Jewellery design requires a lot of work because you want people to wear it beautifully and it's also creative design and your mind opens. The idea comes from all the nature, the people you see and the things around you. It's the same. This part it's all the same. The inspiration, the flash, is all the same, you get that from people, from your work, from nature, but when you do it, actually make it happen, that part is different. Like with painting, you want to make it happen so what are you expecting? With a tattoo, you make it happen, clients and you are expecting. That part is different. But the beginning is all the same, it's all connected. Sometimes I still buy some jewellery design books from different schools outside of China. They have such amazing ideas. I don't think they want to sell it they just wanted to make it. I think it's awesome. So that inspires you a lot. It's like your mind opens. This is cool.

TF: Do you think there's anything different about being a Chinese tattoo artist, and a female Chinese tattoo artist as well?

AM: I don’t think it's different because people don't really care if you're female or not. I'm not shy to do it for guys. But I think somehow the style of the female tattoo artists is more sensitive to the client so they can understand. For example, I have some guy tattoo artist friends and they always want big, Do you want this? It has to be good, it has to be cool, it has to be big! Otherwise you'll regret it! But females do not think like this. If it's big and good it's good, if it's small it's good too. They don't really feel I have to be strong!

TF: I've had two tattoo artists, a female and a male, and the man said, It has to be bigger to see all the lines!

AM: I think guys like that but, as a female, I don't really care. I like big ones that show the line work I’m proud of, but if it fits for you, this is for you, if it's not small is for you. That's how I feel.

TF: You’re definitely gonna design our tattoos, we’ll come with our stories.

孫蓉芳 SUNRONGFANG (fangfang) – The Risky Life

Artist, Painter, Writer

Interview with Transmigrant Flow

TF: Can we just start with the story of how you became an artist from a young age to where you are right now? It's alright if it's a long story.

FF: Well, from a young age, I was born in the 1980s, in that time we didn't have so many phones or iPads from outside. I remember my toy was trucks, drawing on the wall all the time, and hanging out with your friends who live around you. It was a lot of fun and a happy life. My grandfather is a calligraphy artist so I'm naturally holding the brushes to do something. And there are some kids they ask for a painting and say, I want a cat, or others say, I want a fox, I want a cup. So I do those for them and I feel so happy like a god – Okay, what do you want? Like that. I give them to them and I like to cart all the papers. At that time I even like to sing and dance like a natural. When my grandma got cancer and I feared I was seeing the nature flowing out so I think art is a natural thing in kids. I'm very fortunate, I didn't follow the social trend, I kept it going even when I'm in school, I'm one of the best students in math and something that my family asked me to do because I fear only that you can get freedom. Whatever anyone says to you, you are the good one. So you can do something you like. I like to hang out playing with other kids who the schools says are not good. I like them. I think they are kind of natural and interesting people. I'm kind of naturally like those characters. My parents have funny characters too and, when I was five, I was in school, and my father had a chance with work to travel around half of China so, I don't know what he said to my mum, they just gave some reason to my teacher and took me out from school and had a vacation that I shouldn't have had. When every kid was in the school, my parents, like kids, took me out to travel. Then I realised travel really gave me a lot of things. Gave me an open vision, more than in school, sitting there and following what people ask you to do. And I liked to talk to people at that time, to talk to all the people on the train. I naturally ask, like a journalist, I naturally like to ask people, Hi, how are you? where are you from? What are you doing later? I naturally like to make friends with all the people and ask more words. I know these words are big, they're not only my words.

TF: How old where you then?

FF: At that time, five years old. And another thing I can say about my character, when I was three years old, I was separated from my parents because a lot of the time in China, the parents, they have to work and they are young. At that time they are twenty something. They had me pretty young and they want to have fun, they want to have friends and they have jobs so they just put me in my grandma's. That was before I went to school. So the story is that, before I went to school, my parents just dropped me at my grandparents' house and they are in the countryside, like a little village, not so much a village but at that time in China everywhere was like a village. Growing up with my grandparents for those few years and every weekend my parents will take me home so I'm waiting for that moment. But one weekend I think they forgot and then I took my umbrella and pretended it was a horse I'm riding back. So I was a little girl riding my umbrella horse back to my parents and I say “hi” to every person I saw on the way. That was a safe time in China. No people would steal me. I was safe. Outside of my parents door, I knocked on the door and my father opened the door and says, where is your grandfather? He thought he had brought me so I said, I came alone. So he was very shocked. Because even if you're riding a motorbike it takes ten or fifteen minutes driving so I don't know how long I walked. He put me on the back of the motorbike and drive to my grandfather and asked where I was. My grandfather said, Outside, she is playing with those kids. Then my father was angry he said, You're not watching my daughter and she just ran back to my house. That's my character. I can take risks. I am open and I like risk and especially risk for some kind of love. I did a lot of that for what I think are my feelings.

Then my middle school was kind of okay. When I was fifteen a very early relationship started. It was my first kiss with a boy. We had grown up together since I was three years old. And I wanted him to be at the same middle school and high school as me but he was not that good at maths and everything. I was a student sent to high school and didn't need anything. I didn't need to pay because I was very good and the school wanted me. I used a lot of charm to give him some teaching.

TF: You taught your boyfriend?

FF: He was not my boyfriend at them time. It was very limited. I just stayed with him in this little room and tried to ask him to work harder so we can be together in the future or something like that. And we had a kiss in the Moon Festival. It was very sweet, first we had the sweet rice made with sugar and then we had a kiss that was really sweet. He was like flying that night. He told me later that he was flying that night and said, I really want to be with you in the future. And then, of course he jumped up, he was good. Not that good, he just got this and I am much better. But his mum asks, she said, I'll take you two traveling together, and my mum was thinking and thinking and thinking, and said no. Because she didn't want us to have something unexpected at that age. So she kept changing, she agreed and disagreed several times and then she said, okay, you cannot go with him but I will give you some money and you can do whatever you like, just not with him. Then she gave me money and I didn't know what to do so I went to a mountain area that had a lot of universities and I met some very, very good friends, even now. And those people, they were high school students. They are going to university. They are going there to prepare something for the art examination. And so they are painting and they made me feel so relaxed I just found another passion. I don't just want to be a good student, just because I'm good that doesn't mean I like it. I feel art makes people so happy and there's friendship and it's so relaxed. I feel so good. I thought, oh they have a school, you can learn art. I didn't know which kind of art. Then I went back to my high school but I knew this little thing, the seed was in my brain. And then I told some of my classmates, they are not good at maths, they don't like school, I said, You can find another way, you can do art. You don't need to be so good at maths or something. So I took a few people with me and I asked for an empty room at the school president's office. I said, We need an art classroom. We need an empty room to paint in. The president gave this special thing to us and said, Okay. So they had an empty room on top of the president's office and we would paint in there. So I felt good but we didn't have a professional teacher and I taught them a little and we'd teach each other and sometimes we'd go to that mountain area to Hunan university to learn something. And in the three years of high school, I was very fortunate, the third year I felt it was a waste of time to stay in high school so I just totally ran off like a horse and stayed with all of these kids and we would paint all day and all night. It was really good to escape from from your family so I felt so good. Then I took some exams for a different art school. I didn't go back to high school and prepare for English, Chinese, history, politics, all this stuff and I felt very, very passionate at that time because every kid, every year they keep learning and I was like crying because I totally forgot what I needed to do. I had only two months I needed to do the tests for the university. So, one day, a teacher asked me some questions in the class and I was totally empty. I was so far outside. It was like, what to do? So many books! So many books! I was really crying and I said, I can't do it. And then I took a deep breath and said, I have to do this so I can jump out. In China, if you jump out without university you have difficult times. Especially your mum will say a lot of things. So I knew I had to get through it and as far as I can. And then after two months, I think I did really good, I got the first in our city and then I came to Beijing.

I didn't know what art to do I just followed the girl I first met at fifteen in the art place in the mountains and she said “hi” to me and I looked at her eyes for about three seconds and thought, she is my friend. She is two years older than me. She went to university in Beijing in a fashion institute school and she was doing fashion stuff and I said, I don't know what school, I'll just follow you to your school and I took the test and went to the same school as her. Two years later, in that time at school, I didn't know what to do, you know, I think art is a happy and free thing, not about something you have to paint, you have to do. It's just a feeling. So I got to school and I had seven room mates including me. There's a girl, one day she asked me to go with her to the school's reporting centre, she wanted to be a reporter, and she said, I don't want to go alone. Follow me and stay waiting for me. And I said, okay, so she went to do the reporting test and I was sitting outside and the teacher asked me, What are you doing here? And I said I was waiting for my friend and she said, Why not join our editors test? And I said okay. I went to the other room and took the journalist and editors test. I think that really helped me. But I think she failed, she didn't pass the test but I became a journalist for our university paper. I really found my start and I was so hanging out everywhere and riding my little bike and traveling around huge Beijing city. From the north first road to Qinghua university riding. I don't know how far. I didn't feel so happy riding this bike, going everywhere and then I went to a bar and they liked a photograph that I'd taken and he [the owner] was also one of the first people who started Nanluoguxiang. After Qinghua the government asked him to change location so he had to move. So, in 2000, I think, I went to his place and I knew another kind of life outside of university. Not the school life. I felt so happy. Every weekend I went to find my friends. I like people who are older than me. I think they're a lot of fun so I went together with them to shoot some stuff. And they've got those fifty kuai old cameras and I started to use a camera to film so a lot of my money was used to make prints. And a lot of the time I was outside the school traveling with them to do some shooting somewhere. I think after ten years, they all became famous artists. That's the future. At that time, when we were friends, I didn't know that was art I thought it was just a lot of fun. Then I realised that I don't like fashion. I like fashion but I don't like fashion to be an industry. Everyone copies, copies, makes a lot of the same thing and I hate it. So I'd rather be a reporter and a journalist to find something to talk about with people and to shoot photos and just to see, not to make something. I prefered this way.

I started to travel around on some weekends. I'd leave on Thursday and come back before Tuesday morning. Sometimes I have one day that I don't have lessons so I'd take four days to travel to some beach and to somewhere to see some sculptures or some stones. Natural travel, like a backpacker. Also I earned money as a reporter and I also tried to work in an advertising company in my vacation time, writing ideas for advertising. Doing a lot of work and I think this life involves a lot of risk and I like to try a lot of things. Also, I met some people, some producers and the first winter I didn't go back to have Spring Festival with my family because I think I just escaped from my mum. I want freedom and I got a job, I was the best in my university, and I got a job at a newspaper. They sent me to the Morning Beijing as a journalist for two months. My winter vacation I went there and then I realised the winter is cold. And the society even more cold and nineteen years ago, I think I'm kind of a hero, if I want to do something, or write something, I will write. But I tried to do something, and at that time we don't have internet. Some people that are sick need a lot of money and they don't need money, and I tried helping them, I talked to the newspaper to makes some advertising for them but it is impossible because my leader told me, so many things like these, that's society, you don't understand. Then I was crying in the winter and outside it was snowing. A big snow that year. I felt I couldn't hold up, as a journalist, I can't do anything. It's not like, you report the things you find. You're not even allowed sometimes. I felt I couldn't do it and I was crying and I felt, fuck it, I don't want to do it. I'll go back to hiding in my art. Art is beautiful and I realised at least I can warm myself. I can't help outside, I'm too young, so I went back to school the next year but I still didn't like the industry. I just bring my camera and hang out with my friends. I go to the coffee shop and meet different people. Even had a boyfriend. Not serious, school life. I don't know, I did so many things. I risked, you know? I was a fashion designer, shoe designer, reporter, photographer, journalist and I met a producer here in the first winter. He promised to give me my first job when I graduated from school. It was funny, when I graduated, my masters, I was a good student actually, he asked me, Do you want Beijing hukou? I said, What is your condition? He said, Well five years you'll have to stay in Beijing in the factory. I said, No! But I didn't know what to do. My mum can't control me, she can do nothing to me and I felt a little afraid. I had nothing to do. I had a girlfriend, she went to a southern university and she got a PhD as a water colour painter. She is really good. She paints really well. She was doing that and I had nothing to do and we hung out all the time in school, playing with skateboards, hanging out with a skating boy. We hung out together and had a lot of fun. I didn't fear the passion from society. I wanted to just do this. I didn't want it to be different after school. The boy went back to his hometown. He was one year lower than us and the girl was preparing her PhD and I was alone. Then I drank a lot and at that time was very confused. I didn't want to go into society because I had done that and knew what it was like. I didn't try to do anything. I just stayed in school. There are a lot of stories.

Then a girl one year lower than me called me and asked if I wanted to go to her hometown in Sichuan, a very beautiful place. I'd never been so far. I'd always travel around Beijing, like Shanxi or Dalian. Not too far. I think the west is super too far for me. I don't have such a long time but when I graduated she asked me to go so I said, Woah, cool. So I took two hours and bought some fabric pens and made a little bag. And I wear Converse shoes. I'm not like a backpacker, I don't wear the professional shoes. I just wear simple shoes with a big bag and followed her to her hometown. And then I stayed three days. Eat super, super spicy food. I got a very painful stomach. It's a white soup but you get super stomach pain. I took some pills and said goodbye to her because I felt I wanted to go so I left her and went back to Chengdu. Then I stayed in Sichuan university, a girl doing a PhD left me her key and I stayed at her place for ten days and just traveled around and looked around the university and some beautiful places in that city. Then I didn't know what to do so one night I decided I wanted to go so I went to the train station to get a ticket for some other place and it was an over night train so I could wake up in the morning. I wanted to go to Shangri La but I just followed my map so I thought I could go there and I got the ticket. When I got to the station and told them I wanted to go to Shangri La, the people laughed at me and said, there's two big mountains, after five years there will be a highway but now you can't get the bus from here to here. So I asked where can I go? And they pointed to some other place so I bought a ticket to another place. But for me it was all fun and all risk and a beautiful place and the people I remember, they just made you feel interested. I went on to travel for one or two years. Why I did that was because, I told you before I had a boyfriend, it was kind of, if I hadn't broken up with him, life would have kept going and we would have married and had kids and stayed in Beijing, get a hukou, get a house and get a car. But, unfortunately I met another person, with the same birthday as my boyfriend. He was doing art, he's a crazy guy, my girlfriend's teacher in the school. Then I am very confused. I have two people with the same birthday. The relationship got very weird and I just wanted to run away. And they asked me to choose one. They are in front of me asking to choose one, I said, I think freedom is more important so I ran away. I didn't know what to do, you know? So for about one or two years I am traveling and then the first boyfriend, he kept contacting me, he said, You should come back. We should marry. I was just very scared about going back. I didn't want to go back and be forgiven by him because I did something wrong, I am responsible. I don't need people to forgive me. So I just kept running away.

Then I came back to Beijing. The first job, he really promised, the producer, when I was in Yunnan I totally used up my money and my girlfriend, who is two years older than me, and she was going to Italy in luxury and came back to China in a very famous company as a designer. She has a lot of money but no time and I phoned her and said I was traveling and didn't have any money and she sent me money to the bank and I kept going. But I couldn't ask her for more. I still had no money and after a few days when the money arrived I was thinking what to do. Then I got a phone call from that guy, the producer, he said, We have a movie that will start, we need a designer for the clothes. He asked me if I wanted to come and I said, Oh, good, but can you pay me half the money before I go back because I'm super, super far from Beijing and I don't have money. So he sent me money and I came back. I did the job and, after two months, the film was finished and I got the other half of the money. Then I did different jobs. I wasn't in a stable place. Then when I don't have another choice, I stayed in my classmate's home. Now they are running a famous games company in the top ten in Asia, she and her husband. During that time I was staying with them for free on their couch. When I felt cold, I went to stay with other girlfriends, like the luxury designer and I cooked for her. I'm a very good chef. I have nothing to do, I just cook for her and she goes to work every day and comes back. And then my mum married another man and sometimes I spent time with them. In 2007 they broke up again so I didn't want to go home after that. I thought I belong to the world, not a small family that keeps hurting, I want to open myself. They have a story like a broken jar, how to make it fill with water? Three months have a test in the temple and the third monk just puts the broken jar in the water and then it's full. Do you know this story? It's about wisdom so I think I didn't fuck up my life, I just threw myself into the society but I have my rules and I have my feelings like what I should do, what I shouldn't do. I don't take the rules from society or from the family. I think testing myself is what I need to do, what I shouldn't do. A lot of the things. Then I met some art people. In 2007, in Nanluoguxiang there was a rich lady who bought a yard, its' totally all fixed and I was allowed to use it as my studio for free. In 2008, the Olympic times, it's so popular on Nanluoguxiang. Before that, I stayed in my friends coffee bar with my friends just sitting there and talking with writers and I could make some little job living in a small room for those few years and then I got a studio and a lot of people came to me and talked to me and I improved my English.

I set up some exhibitions with another girl, a photographer, we set up parties and exhibitions and it's a kind of a life start. More and more open it's just the nature of growing in a natural way, not a weird way. And I made a lot of friends just out talking like you're Japanese you're from America and you're from Iceland. I like people from everywhere talking. All the cultural stuff mixing. I have this feeling that I'm not myself that I'm part of the world. Then I was painting t-shirts to sell for one hundred. I bought them for five kuai, it was ten kuai to paint on them then selling them for one hundred. At that time some people asked me to make some art to sell to the professional galleries and I felt I was not prepared so I said I didn't want to sell my art if I don't feel something is prepared. So I kept doing different work to survive my life and I got a three year designer job, very stable for a shoe company. I got paid and gave them the stuff, I didn't need to go to the office for two or three years and then I felt I didn't like doing it anymore. Then I started to do painting as an illustrator for some magazines, for fashion magazines and Chinese National Geographic. What you see on the website, the maps, that's for them. I got some different jobs and am painting more. I get very good skills and think, that is good. I also, you know, since you are trying so many things, you know what you don't like to do anymore so, I think painting, is quiet, is myself. I listen to myself. That could be my work so I get some jobs people give me and then, one year later, I thought I don't want to work for the magazine, I don't want to get a job. I have a little money, I'm hoping I can get money in a different way and start traveling again to Thailand and then I feel, Oh yes. At that time I lost two cameras, people stole my cameras. I can't take photos and it's too expensive to buy another one and the phone cannot take photos at that time. So I really wanted to do something. I really wanted to remember something, so I have written diaries since 2000 or 2001 so I started to draw on my diaries, the people like you, I remember you. I don't have a camera so I have to make documentary portraits and write the story as the simple version I remember. That is my time. Otherwise I feel I'm gone, I am empty, I feel like, who am I. I write a diary and document it. That's natural. I just don't know whether it's art or not I just feel that I want to do it.

Then one year later, I got an iPad as a gift and one month later it was stolen and one year later I got another new one and then one day, I met a monk and he was sitting here, I was here, I felt something and I wanted to draw his portrait. I didn't take paper because I thought it would be noisy. I opened my iPad and made a quiet peaceful portrait of him. Then I felt I wanted to make one more so I made one more and asked him to sign it. I felt like that was getting touched, in my iPad I did more and more portraits. I just wanted to do it and talk to people and do documentary portrait. In Beijing, in New York, in Thailand in Tibet, everywhere, something from the diary book, something from the iPad. I was doing a lot and also some paintings. Then the girl, who I'd followed to university, she had begun to get famous in the design stuff. She is running her own brand, an independent company. She introduced me to the leader of one of the chains and said I did portraits on my iPad and that I should be introduced to the Apple company. So the chain's leader sent my information to Apple and gave them the information. And they sent that on the to big Chinese marketing director and he contacted me and we had a meeting with the marketing, PR and education centre of Apple in Guomao. They gave me a free iPad. And I was so happy. At that time I was helping a school in Tibet, I'd been doing it for two years before that, and I took the iPad and one new phone and went to Tibet by train, and I also got some free clothes for the kids. Some friends saved the money and they brought the crates super far from Tibet, I know someone who works as a doctor there. And together they're talking to the kids. I think it's kind of useless if you're trying to give clothes, they need people to stay there for their education. They need people to be with them. I go two or three times in two or three years, collecting my friends old clothes or new clothes. Then I don't have the energy to do it. Then I start art, anyway naturally, two years ago. I got a place to live and started some loose thing, you need a quiet life. The iPad is quick, talking to people and making things. Also, the portraits, when I make one of you I show you some of the others so I called this project, Everyone meet Everyone. That's it.

TF: Your work is both traditional and then you use the digital and you've shown in your life how that happened, but does it give you a different feeling when you're doing the digital or the traditional art? What are the differences and what are the same?

FF: I think life is like a tree, it's growing naturally. I think it's not different it's just some materials.

TF: What kind of work of yours gets the most attention from other people?

FF: I think every person is different, every artists is different so I think it is more information or energy. I'm just a part of the universe and I throw me into something. Throw me to cooking, throw me to writing, throw me to painting and I'm just a part. I don't know what is different.

TF: If you were talking to yourself when you were younger, what would you say to that little girl?

FF: So many dreams, so many dreams. Like I'm a good ping pong player so I used to think I could be a ping pong player or a mad scientist. Or so many things. I never dream about being an artist. Because who you are is a social state. I don't like any of it.

TF: So do you not like to call yourself an artist?

FF: I don't know what I would call myself. Now for this moment, an artist. Also, like the news, sometimes they call me an artist so I am an artist.

TF: You're not from Beijing originally so what do you think is different between being in Beijing and doing art here and when you leave, what do you see outside?

FF: Well Beijing is totally different compared with my hometown. That place, life is a little more leisurely. Beijing has more choices, you can go deep, you can go wide, you can stay in Beijing and meet people or you can jump out. For me, at this moment, I think I can feel the world, even if I'm in Beijing or in any place. I have my world, this world is the universe. Before I didn't have this idea, I feel I am so small. There's a song by Dido, [sings] a little, little girl in a big, big world. I'm a big, big girl in a big, big world, like this. I like this song and I feel that I'm big but I'm small. I'm in this huge world. But September in 2009 I asked myself, first I feel China will need more and more culture and art because we already have the buildings, the stuff you can see, we need something you cannot see. Those years the government gave the culture it follows my feelings. And I feel, what is the universe? I really want to know it so I have to know it from myself so I even try to know myself by writing the diaries and training in kung fu, writing calligraphy, anything to feel myself. Then my feeling is I can feel all the universe so not only myself.

TF: I wanted to ask a question about that, the blog we're looking at is really for foreigners so, what do you believe a Chinese artist should say to foreigners or why are Chinese artists important now in China's history?

FF: I think China's 5000 years really have a lot of things I need to know more about. Like today I have tea lessons this afternoon. Yeah, you feel this culture go back to your nationalities to feel what is good. Those things can help you be a better person. Like the tea stuff, making the tea will be peaceful and slow like making kung fu. All those traditional things will help you be a better person. For the foreigners, I think some foreigners even think those things are more important than a lot of Chinese. They accept our culture sometimes more than Chinese people know our culture. For me, I jump out, I jump in, I jump out, jump in so I have a distance to see ourselves and try to learn more and make friends with the world. I don't want people saying the financial things we get. I'm not a financial person, I'm not a political person. I think art is no edge. It's a friend and people can make friends by this way that is.

TF: You were talking about relaxing and art...

FF: Feeling by the human being, human feeling not like nationalities, of course we have differences but we also have some similar things. Art is the complicated and the simple. Art is to feel something sensitive, different and to make something to let people feel common. To feel the same feelings. Yeah. Of course it's different but in the art world they have tong pin gong zhen, how to say that? Like you feel the same way.

TF: You mentioned especially with your iPad art, that series is about connected people because you do a portrait of someone and then you show them other people's portrait so it's a way of connected people, what about your paintings? How do you hope to effect people with your paintings? Do you think all art connects people or is there a difference in what you achieve with the paintings?

FF: It's easier to carry, it's easier to make, it's easier to show people. It's like my mobile studio. I remember one day in India, I was at a table with people, different people everywhere. They would point at me and say, everything's made in China, bowls, cups, everything's made in China. The Indian person is a little angry. Well, when I'm not in China, I know I'm Chinese. Well I am made in China what do you think I want? So that's why art is important. Chinese are not only making something you sell we also have the soul and have the art. So I show him all of my works and say this is what I feel and I make the art. And then he felt surprised. He said, you're the first person I've seen who is not only making products, you are making art, you're making those things and he felt different. So making a friend be soft, not everything made in China! So art can make people feel relaxed.

TF: So do you hope that's the direction China goes in with showing more of that side?

FF: Yeah, of course. And also I feel the tea and the kung fu, a lot of things, are about human beings, for every person in the world. It's not only for Chinese. And medicine and a lot of things, people should share the good things, I think.

TF: Is there anything else you want to say to us or our audience?

FF: I think it's a wonderful world. My family name is Sun, but I prefer if people pronounce it sun. I think the sun has natural energy it gives people. It's not asking like an animal asks for something. The sun, I feel like the sun I want to make energy by myself. That's it. And I think art is about to warm, to fix, to give

Michelle Proksell – People Nearby

Digital Anthropologist, Photographer, Poet, Videographer, Musician, Performance Artist

Interview on 24 October at Beetle in a Box, Beixinqiao

TF: Let's start by talking about your current projects.

MP: The biggest one would be the Chinternet Archive and daily posting on WeChat. Am I supposed to talk about what it is?

TF: Yeah, go ahead.

MP: The Chinternet Archive is, at this point, something I've been collecting since April 2014, and it's evolved to probably around 20,000 images. It grows very fast because I collect every day. Anywhere from ten to 100 images a day. I collected for the first eight months before I started posting them as a daily performance because I wanted time to understand what I was looking at, to follow the patterns more thoroughly and to create collections and curate them… ultimately…. then using the platform I collected them in, which is WeChat, to then display them. So, the audience is just all of the people in my contact list who witness my “Moments” every day. And this means the audience is changing every day depending on who I'm meeting in real life or who's meeting me or being connected to me, adding to this list of ongoing audience members. The collection grows and the audience grows consistently.

TF: How did you start this project, the Chinternet Archive?

MP: My research partner, Gabriele de Seta who is a digital anthropologist, we started working on it together actually, initially trying to find aesthetic trends in Chinese selfies. So I used the “People Nearby” function in WeChat to start collecting selfies in Beijing specifically. But, in this process of collecting, I was witnessing that there was so much more interesting things happening in graphics and vernacular photography, and also what this meant on a real-life level, like how people were using the app. The user-ship of the app and the particular feature of “People Nearby” are endlessly fascinating. So it just started developing and I couldn't resist because I was finding patterns and trends very quickly so I just kept collecting and collecting and collecting. And at a certain point, no one really knew about it, for like eight months nobody knew that I was doing this and then suddenly I just started posting, because I wanted something to do with it, and I didn’t tell anyone what I was doing when I started posting. I chose specifically not to frame it as art in the beginning. The initial posting was actually to get reactions. To see how people would react to certain things so then I could begin to understand the content better myself. So, initially it began out of digital anthropology research.

TF: You mentioned that you used the “people nearby” function, why did you choose to do that not just look through Bing or Baidu?

MP: I mean, the reason I chose WeChat as a platform is because it's the place where everything gets funnelled into. If something exists first on Weibo or QQ, it ends up in WeChat eventually. All the relevant stuff does at least. Also, on a technological level, it's a fascinating app to explore because it's China's first homegrown OS and it's the first platform that's been truly international in a way that QQ and Weibo have never, so you're also seeing really what it represents on a globalised scale as a tool. This reflects the direction China's is going in in every part of the world. So that was the reason for choosing WeChat specifically. There are three ways you can reach out to strangers on WeChat. The first is a “Message in a Bottle” feature which is just gimmicky and silly and it's unreliable and it's a very slow process to actually achieve a lot of content. The second is the “Shake” feature which is also unreliable and you can only get one person at a time. The “People Nearby” function allows me to see a whole list of people in a radius of 1,000 meters. So it allows a much easier process to accumulate, collect and see information quickly enough to spend your time wisely in the process of doing so. And the “People Nearby” function is the idea that someone clicking this function is saying, “yes, I'm going to connect to strangers in this moment around me”…. Consenting to the fact that, whether their profile's open or not, they're choosing to reach outside of their limited network within WeChat to connect to strangers. And this itself is quite interesting as a feature because it's separate to what WeChat usually functions as for most of us.

TF: You mentioned you think of yourself as an anthropologist or a curator, can you talk about when you're searching for these images and posting them, how do you view yourself in this process?

MP: How do I view myself in this process? [laughs] Well I have a photography background originally so, when I really approached it, I was looking at things very aesthetically. The Chinese internet has influenced my aesthetic in a way I never expected. Also, I really love the kitschiness, and the busyness and the obscene nature of aesthetics on the Chinese internet. I found it very enjoyable. It reminds me so much of 8-bit culture or Web 1.0. which I have a silly nostalgia for. So, when I was approaching this aesthetic I was seeing how even selfies and portraiture were being represented in the home in the same way that you see the kitschiness of Chinese internet and those details, I love looking at those details in the background and what they reveal on a sociological and psychological level. And, not necessarily why people are posting, but how they're choosing to post themselves, to me, is quite interesting. I see my role as a sort of documentary photographer for this reason. You can imagine the Chinese internet as a landscape, which it is, it is a physical plane in the virtual world. I'm walking down this virtual street of the Chinese internet and I'm photographing, literally, through screen shots most of the time, what I witness happening around me. The virtual world in China is not separate from the real world. It is one world together existing with any person who has a mobile device in hand. So, to me, I guess my role is, I'm sort of a documentarian photographer, maybe, something like this.

TF: You said that you've worked across many mediums in your career as an artist, could you talk more about which mediums you're drawn to in the moment and maybe some of your background in other mediums?

MP: Yeah. Well it all started with writing actually. I've been writing poetry since I was four years old. And then it evolved into photography. Which is what I eventually majored in, but I quickly evolved into video and film. And so I experimented in independent films for a short while. And then it evolved into sound and music. And then it evolved into performance. And so it's interesting because all of these mediums, what they have in common, is that they are based in intuitiveness and a quick response. Like if you think about poetry it's a very quick response to something. The same with photography, you're quickly collecting something. In sound…. I produce music and sound very improvisationally, so it's all based off intuition with the musicians I work with or with an experience I'm having with performance, also exactly the same. So most of my processes are based off a real reflective response to what is happening around me or what I personally experience on many different cultural levels, like trans-cultural experiences because I've grown up and lived in many different places.

TF: Let's talk some more about this idea of trans-culture or cross-culture in the WeChat archive that you're building.

MP: Well the biggest thing is, how I collect is through a location based feature, right? So to describe what the Chinese internet is, it's like location, location, location. So it is like this physical/non-physical realm of space. But because of the internet history in China, and how it's evolved very quickly to the mobile device and many people's first experience of the internet is through mobile devices, it's also been something very transient which is a different history to most of us in the West. In the West we began with large expensive computers which you had access to if you were of a certain demographic. Internet was slow, you had to wait for it and it was expensive. This is a very different culture from developing countries, for example China and it's own internet history. So this mobility is really a reflection of the direction everything is going in terms of globalisation, mobility. The ability to cross borders, physical borders, virtual borders, whatever. This feature is also location based because anyone using it is somehow connected to China, whether they're Chinese, or it's their family, or their friends, or business, or something. So everything that's being processed and filtered within it has a relationship to China and therefore to the Chinese internet. It was also developed and is managed by a Chinese internet company. But it’s mobility on cellular devices allows it to physically cross the GFW. So, for example, when I was in Korea, Seoul, I can turn on my “People Nearby” function, which I did, and I collected people in my vicinity. I was looking at what Chinese people in Korea were doing. What images were they posting? And in the images they're posting, what does it tell me about their demographic, their jobs, their age, their families, where they're living and what they're doing in Korea. So the “People Nearby” function lets me collect this little slice of a Chinese person's experience in Korea and allows me to sort of explore that. And I can do this in any country I go to. Some cities, obviously, I can find more content than others. Bigger cities like New York, Houston, cities with large populations of Chinese people, you're going to find more content. Smaller cities around the world, sometimes I don't find anything. But in each of these locations, it extends the idea of how the whole world is globalising and how everything is becoming mobile somehow, and how China's a part of this in it’s own history, in a way it has never been before… like in the way China's expanding through the globe through industry, through culture, through education, through whatever.

TF: I saw you were interviewed by WIRED Germany, was the interview in German?

MP: Yeah.

TF: You also mentioned you were interviewed by Casimir TV from South Africa, so why do you think there's such a global interest in your work?

MP: Well I think it's two things. I think everyone's interested in technology and the internet, and right now everyone's putting their eyes on China. I mean, the fact that what I do is both, is like a whole new level. And the fact that there aren't many other people who are talking about it or in the same way that I am at this point in history. Although, that will eventually change. But in general, images are powerful. They are something we can all interpret in some regard, whether or not we're Chinese or speak Chinese. We all connect to images on some level. So, I think it's a combination of those, maybe.

TF: You've mentioned you have an interest in psychology, could you talk about how psychology influences your work?

MP: Absolutely! Especially behavioural psychology. I mean, I did study psychology briefly so I do have a history with it. I mean, I'm just fascinated with people, actually. And I'm really fascinated with how they connect with each other… maybe because I grew up my early youth in Saudi Arabia as an American and left because of a war, then going to a country I had never lived in that didn't understand me….kids made fun of me…those were my earliest memories of America…total feelings of displacement from an early age. And so I've always been an observer from the outside. I've always felt like an observer from the outside so, when you're in this position, you tend to watch a lot. And you watch behavioural patterns. And the longer you do this, the more you pick up on why it is people do, and represent themselves the way that they do. And then eventually, I did this for a long time looking at online cultures and participating in online experiences and performances. So all of this applies to what I'm doing now, which is watching behaviour on a platform like WeChat, seeing how people are using it, talking to my Chinese friends about what some of it means, the stuff that I can't interpret myself. Which then opens me up and allows me to feel much closer to China. It also allows me to see on what level trans-cultural experiences are universal. Certain things like posting pictures of your baby, you know, to making selfies. These really basic things. So, the psychological angle, as far as interpreting images and why I choose to collect certain patterns, is based off of details in those images. The objects in the background are much more revealing to me than the people in the images most of the time. 'Cause the people in the images are shaping themselves the way that they want to be seen in some regard but those objects are just the objects. They are what they are and they tell a lot more.

TF: At the beginning you mentioned that you were collecting these images for eight months before posting but now it's become quite important to you to post in real time so how did they change for you and why?

MP: The posting in real time is really only based on when I'm in specific cities I'm posting about. For instance, when I was in Hong Kong, and Shenzhen, and Korea, or Xi’an, or Shanghai, or any of these places I was posting in real time because it's location based and I was trying to reflect that I was in that location and most people in my contacts knew I was traveling at that point. But day to day, I'm not really posting in real time. The content is coming from the archive which has existed now since April 2014. So, it'll be two years in a couple of months actually. But some days I do post in real-time, even in Beijing, it just depends on the content I find that day. I often reflect on what is happening in the real world too… smog, weather, disasters, news… etc. Other postings are based off of content I’ve been collecting over a long, long period of time and finally feel are ready to share publicly.

TF: Do you get many posts of comments from the photos and the archive and have you had any particularly interesting responses?

MP: I had one guy who really wanted to impose Orientalism on me, saying I was making fun of China because in the beginning I was actually writing a lot in Chinese and English as poetic gesture to reflect on the content and that was my artistic touch. And he interpreted it as me making fun of China which, it's not about me making fun of China, it's me reflecting on China. Those are two different things in my opinion. That was the only hostile response I've ever gotten. It was funny because he was not a part of any of my other friend networks and nobody else was witnessing it because, you know, when someone comments on your “Moments,” the only people who can see it are those who have a mutual friend. So it was funny because nobody saw this except he and I.

TF: Were you responding to him as well?

MP: Absolutely. And in the end he finally sort of understood what it was I was doing in a way. That's the thing, I don't tell people what it is, if they become my contact they're just automatically part of the audience whether or not they like it. They could choose to not look at my “Moments” but most of the time they want to. They look forward to seeing it every day in some regards and, what was interesting was that after the first month, people I started to see in real life were constantly making more comments to me in real life than on the posts, saying, holy crap I love this Chinternet stuff, it's so interesting, it's so hilarious, oh my god, the stuff in Korea was fascinating. So actually I get more responses in real life as a result than I do with people responding with hearts or short comments.

TF: Do you think that's because they are viewing your account as an art exhibition?

MP: I think most people think it's just like a blog or something. I think that's what most people interpret it as, which I think is hilarious because for me it seems like a reflection of the whole experience of broadcasting online. It's like everyone says, if you're broadcasting so constantly with some sort of continuity then it must be a blog. The fact that people in my network are not all artists also, they don't necessarily interpret it as an artistic gesture. But I like this because my biggest issue, actually, with art is the Art World and how inaccessible it really becomes to people outside of it…and their inability to be able to reflect on what's being made. This gesture, this constant daily posting performatively allows me to directly address and create an experience outside of a market, outside of a gallery, outside of anything else. As a foreigner in this landscape, it's a precarious situation because I work with Chinese content and produce Chinese things that are thoughtfully reflective of this and the Chinese aesthetic, but I'm not Chinese. So the Chinese market is not interested because I'm not Chinese. And the Western market is not interested because I'm not Chinese. But it doesn't mean that what I'm doing isn't viable to a larger discourse. However nobody knows how to write something like that into this history yet. So, I've written myself into it by creating this circumstance where artists, curators, everyday people, business people, anyone who's in my contacts, has to experience it.

TF: You mentioned the “People Nearby” function on WeChat and that it's something that people use to reach out into the open and welcome a connection to somebody else and that when you actually connect with them and see their profile that the reason behind what they want to do that is often revealed. Can you give some examples?

MP: Yeah. I often have people, obviously married men, contacting me. So when I originally started my account, when I was exploring this, I was not myself, I was a Chinese woman. A very beautiful Chinese woman, actually. So people who were connecting to me were men mostly. Sometimes women in the beginning. So this was over 2014, April, a year and a half ago.

TF: Did you have a profile?

MP: At that time I didn't. I'd created a false profile of images as well. So I, essentially, was constructing a Chinese girl's life. In the beginning, and I did this to sort of assimilate myself into an environment where I didn't stand out and I could see what was happening on a natural level, like, how people were connecting or choosing to connect to certain kinds of people. So I created this avatar initially for this reason and what I found really quickly was, as a beautiful Chinese girl, men contacted me a lot. Married men, clearly married men. So that motive itself is pretty obvious. Men with pictures of them and their wives, I mean, why are they contacting a beautiful, young random Chinese girl? We all know what that means. And then, at that time, the only women... I was trying to connect to women and talk to women, because in the beginning I was actually interacting with people, but there is a limitation to what you can achieve in interacting with strangers and I found it wasn't really conducive to the approach of what I wanted to achieve, which was an archive at a certain point. So I was trying to connect with women and no one would ever talk to me except retail women and, in the beginning, there were very few of them and I would say…. just since the beginning of this year, since January 2015, ten times the amount of retailers exist in WeChat and contact me on a regular basis to try to sell me things. Because they can't tell if I'm Chinese or not at this point because I have a very ambiguous profile and it's a closed account. But it says, I love music, I love rainbows, haha… in Chinese so to anybody, I look like a Chinese person still, so I still get many, many comments from women only through this way usually. They are usually trying to either sell me products – beauty products, clothes, watches, shoes – or to get me to come to their beauty clinic… like nurses who are clearly trying to get you to come to their beauty clinic to have procedures done. These are common people that contact me. So you see a business culture happening, you see a hook up culture happening and you see normal things like people just connecting for friendships. I've actually connected to random people and we have started a friendship through this feature.

TF: Regarding the location function, you mentioned that because WeChat is linked in some way to China, whether it's people who've lived here or Chinese people living around the world, friends, family, are there any locations in the world you're particularly interested in traveling to based on that?

MP: Absolutely! Africa! I would love to spend a good amount of time in different regions of Africa where industrialisation is occurring. Where China has its hand in it. Also in places like Spain and France and California where you have high populations of Chinese people or Canada too, and then even more obscure places like South America. Certain regions of South America where there's Chinese industry happening, like Brazil. In parts of Southeast Asia, Vietnam, where Chinese factories are being built. Essentially in these high-density areas experiencing an influx of Chinese people. For example, Spain is experiencing this. Also Portugal because they are having very slowed economies so property is very cheap and if a Chinese person buys property in these regions they can ensure their children access to European schools very easily. Or even citizenship for themselves. This happens in Canada, this happens in California and they can go and have their babies there and their babies have citizenship. So I'm very fascinated with those kind of areas. But Africa the most.

TF: So you've been talking about real life and the virtual space, what do you think of that divide, in your work or in your ideas?

MP: For me, they used to be a lot more distinct than they are now. They're something that, once you live abroad, actually everything becomes virtual or starts to feel virtual. Because the people you have the closest relationships with do not live in your physical space any more. So you extend that relationship through virtual mediums. The longer you do that, the more natural this becomes. And then of course, in China, we all function on WeChat in a way that's almost surreal a lot of the time. Real discussions, real relationships being built and growing through these platforms that, at this point, what my feeling is, they are becoming synonymous and I think this is happening very naturally and very quickly in developing countries that are experiencing the mobile experience of the internet first. Where there's no disconnection, the internet is everywhere and it's cheap, it's accessible. So it becomes an extension of your body. And to me it's just a reflection of how much closer we are to it being in our body. Which is only a matter of time.

TF: So the internet's inside of us?

MP: Yeah, just never logging off. Literally.

TF: Could you talk about that a little bit for people who might not know what you're talking about?

MP: I mean body hacking has been going on for sometime now. The first cyborg is this British/Catalan guy, Neil Harbisson. The UK was the first country to acknowledge him as a cyborg on his passport. He has a light-sensor that allows him to experience colour through sound and he's created a whole cyborg foundation. And then if you look at robotics and the evolution of prosthetics and even in Japan they're testing being able to play pianos using your mind. All of these are becoming really real in our lifetime and they're going to continue to grow and grow. Which means our relationship to technology is becoming more physical on a literal level, where it's in our body or connected directly to our body and, therefore, on an emotional, psychological level that reality means that disconnecting is only getting harder and harder. And then when you're never disconnecting how can you maintain a clearness of your own self-awareness. Things like that.

TF: I feel like WeChat is the only app that encompasses everything, it's more than facebook...

MP: I always joke, but I think it's pretty spot on…. but I see WeChat being like Web 3.0. It's like Web1.0 was a certain level of graphics and Web 2.0 was social networking like facebook, myspace, online shopping, all of this kind of stuff and I think that Web 3.0 is the centralisation of all of these things in this history…because at this point WeChat is reaching a global scale in user-ship, not entirely yet but that's only a matter of time and it's entirely encompassing. Everything from WePay, to business deals, to calls, and face calls, and chat groups, moments, so it's like a combination of tumblr, twitter, social networking, Taobao. I mean you can buy things and you can have virtual secretaries and virtual boyfriends and it's like entirely encompassing like you described. This is the next phase of the internet. It's mobility especially.

TF: I used to get those apps like WeChat Secretary to do everything for me because I don't speak Chinese. Do you have any thoughts about that?

MP: I only recently heard about WeChat Secretary but I don't particularly need to use those things. Yeah, I think it's just an extension of connectivity in a whole new way. We've seen even in the West, in America, people outsourcing like their IKEA furniture to Craigslist. This is just an even more efficient way maybe.

TF: It's taking the labour out of doing things.

MP: Yeah. And it's creating whole new industries that we've never envisioned before. And that's a thing that always has to be understood in the development of technology, there's always this fear that technology's going to overtake human jobs but it's not that. It's a shift of economics, it's a shift of industry that emerges. So it's not about it destroying things for humans, it's about humans adapting to the evolution of industries and what that means. And in this case, think about it, something like WeChat Secretary is basically outsourcing ayis or whoever, people who need work. People who need new opportunities, people who need jobs. There's something quite positive about it. Especially applied to a country of so many people who are moving more and more to a cities and in need of work.

TF: What would you say is the goal of your work?

MP: It's actually moving me away from the arts and more into the sciences, like psychology and neuroscience. It's opened me up to an awareness of what our emotional and physical relationships really are, like what I always describe as the physicality of the internet. Which ultimately is a few things. To me when I say this, I'm meaning the internet is as physical as our ability to access it, right? But also our emotional relationship to it. The entanglement, and anxiety, and excitement, and fear, and anger, and how we use it to dehumanise or we use it to avoid things that we are scared of, like breaking up with people in WeChat or ending relationships with people by whatever other platform. So witnessing WeChat in it’s evolution for the last year or two is directing me into this feeling of... I want to produce things that have much bigger impact. Making objects that are put on walls to sell, I don't really feel like I'm contributing to a larger impact, to the direction humanity is going in. Creating an archive that can be accessible to other researchers and then posting every day in a way where real people are experiencing it that allows them to understand what they're witnessing in a new light….to me this is a much bigger impact. And it's more empowering, not just for me but, for my connection to the world and what I have to contribute.

TF: I feel like I almost forget to ask this question because we all live in China, but outside of China people always talk about Chinese internet being blocked or regulated or that kind of stuff? Does that effect your work at all?

MP: I mean that's what drew me to this side of the world initially, because I grew up in Saudi Arabia which, next to North Korea [DPRK], is one of the most intensely censored countries in the world. So I think I've always been attracted to places with limitations and, since I was working in new media and internet based art and galleries and projects back in the States for years before I came here, I was already fascinated by what was happening on the internet. And then first I came to China in 2004, to mainland China, I'd been to Hong Kong many times before as a child, and I knew something interesting was happening since then. So the thought of the Chinese internet for me was like a whole new internet landscape to explore and I wanted to understand this better because I can closely relate to what it means to be censored in many real ways. And when you grow up with this level of censorship, you can never go back. You can't like suddenly say, oh I'm not being censored in the world. Actually you spend the whole of your life self-censoring, understanding that people are constantly watching, observing, collecting etc. So it plays a factor in me trying to understand another landscape's version, but I find the limitations can be very profound too. It creates a level of subversity that can be innovative, and to me that's what's so fascinating about the Chinese internet….the innovation that is a result of what shouldn't or what can't be shown and how you have to work around that in creative ways.

TF: This idea of being constantly watched, haven't you then become a watcher as well? And now you are not so much creating your own art to be displayed, but capturing other people's photographs to be displayed, does that reflect on you somehow?

MP: Yeah, I think I am very comfortable being an observer. I mean that's a natural state for me because I've always somehow been a foreigner since the day I was born. I mean I am making works out of the archive as well, there are physical pieces that are being made as well. But yeah, I think it absolutely all feeds itself. It's an extension of itself. It's like me, I have always viewed what I am (since I've lived between certain levels of cultures) as existing in a mode of thinking that's always in the in-between. So what that allows me to do is adapt to foreign experiences very quickly and connect in deep ways regardless of the limitations. And it allows me to see beneath the stereotypes to process it in a way that I can then help relate it to other people of other cultures. So it's almost like transcultural interpretations. And that's because I've always existed between some sort of in-between where I'm shifting constantly and this is a condition of what the third culture individual lifestyle results in. This is becoming more and more common especially here in China where you look at interracial couples, international families coming and doing business here, or even Chinese families going abroad and living and raising their children in entirely different cultures and then coming back to China. We're reaching a point where more and more people are going to have to deal with the reality of the in-between and how do we deal with it.

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