Da Gua 大瓜 – Excited for Each New Food Adventure

Zine Designer/Blog Curator

Interview on March 15 at Mas, Beixinqiao

KL: So, let’s start by talking about the zine. How did it start and where did it come from?

DG: This zine started about two years ago. Back then, I thought the food magazines out there were way too pretty and sophisticated and not at all an accurate portrayal of the food people were eating everyday. I had a few ideas, one of which was making an illustrated guide of Dao Xiang Cun, an old Beijing pastry chain. Dao Xiang Cun is being talked about a lot now, but very few people actually cared or knew anything about it back then. Another idea was looking at what snacks elementary school students were eating. I also thought of showing recipes for four different ways of cooking tomato and egg (xihongshi chaojidan). My last idea was inviting the working class of Beijing to document what they had for lunch everyday. When I felt that I had enough ideas to start the project, I thought of Li Shanshan, an old colleague of mine. We weren’t so close back then, but I felt in a vague and strange way that we were very compatible; she was also into hip hop culture and dressed like a rapper chick. Our first meeting happened in the Sanlitun McDonald’s, where I proposed the idea to her. I’d seen her Instagram and liked it; I thought it was very genuine.

KL: 咱们先聊聊这个zine（独立杂志）吧。怎么开始的？想法是从哪儿来的？

DG: 这个zine大概是两年前开始的。当时我觉得市面上能看到的美食杂志都做得太美了，太漂亮了，都不是我们老百姓每天真正在吃的东西。所以我就有了几个想法，想做几个选题，其中一个就是做稻香村的大图鉴。虽然最近稻香村被说得很多，但那个时候没有太多人关注到这一点。我想的另一个选题是小学生他们都去吃什么，还有一个西红柿炒鸡蛋的几种做法。最后想到去请在北京工作不同职业的人去记录他们的中午饭。当我有了这些想法，觉得可以做了之后，就想到了以前的一个同事，叫李珊珊。我们当时并不是很熟，但是我感觉我们都特喜欢hip hop 音乐和文化，她看起来也特别像个黑人女孩儿，所以冥冥之中我就觉得我们俩很搭。我们第一次是约在三里屯的麦当劳，我问她愿不愿意跟我一起来做。我看过她放在Instagram上放的东西，觉得很真实，我也很喜欢。

KL: What’s your background as far as doing design or food writing?

DG: None at all. My major in college was television, along the lines of communications and journalism. I worked in a bookstore for the most part, where I found a bunch of Japanese zines and posters that were pretty influential to me. Through working on this zine, I’ve realized that my childhood experience with food differs from that of a lot of people. My parents are big foodies too and were in the habit of going out to eat when they were young. Before the Cultural Revolution, my great-grandpa was sent as a part of a group of professionals from China to Vietnam as a director for the railroads. He received double the amount of salary (one in Vietnam and one in China), so he’d take his family out to restaurants like Donglaishun Hot Pot, Sen Long (near Gongzhufen or Dongan Market), and Lao Mo whenever he was in Beijing. Back then these restaurants was quite vacant. My dad and uncle loved the experience and eagerly awaited my great-grandpa’s return. My dad still remembers being intrigued by Donglaishun’s service process; that they only had male waiters in those days and how they arranged the chopsticks and plates. My mom’s family enjoyed going out as well. Rumor has it they’ve been to every restaurant in the Zoo area, including the Xinjiang joints. When I was young my parents would take me, now and then, to eat at the newly opened Western restaurant in town, and I remember being so excited for each new food adventure. I guess I’ve collected a lot of experiences and sentiments related to food.

KL: 你有跟设计或者食物有关的背景或经历吗？

DG:完全没有。我在大学学的是电视，传播和新闻类的。我后来一直在一个书店工作。在那个时候我接触到了很多日本杂志和画报，对我有一定的影响。慢慢通过做这个杂志，我发现我小时候跟食物的经历确实跟大家不太一样。我爸妈其实也特别喜欢吃，他们年轻的时候就有出去吃饭的习惯。这也和他们小时候的家庭有关。文革之前，我的太姥爷作为中国专家团在越南指挥修铁路，定期回国探亲，因为他是双份工资（国内国外各一份），相对来说比较富裕，每次回来都会在东来顺、森隆（在公主坟、东安市场都有）、老莫…… 请家里人吃饭，那时候就开始下饭馆。当时饭馆都很清静，没有那么多人。我爸爸和叔叔就觉得饭馆的饭特好吃，天天盼着太姥爷回来，因为回来就能下饭馆；爸爸还记得当时东来顺都是男服务员，一套服务的程序，怎么摆碗筷，小孩都觉得很新奇。我妈妈小时候家里也喜欢出去吃，据说动物园附近都吃遍了，还有新疆餐厅什么的。在我小时候他们就带我去北京新开的什么西式餐厅啊等等。所以可能我从小就有这种积累吧，食物对我来讲是小时候家人带我出去的那种很憧憬很兴奋的感觉。

KL: Why the zine format? I’ve noticed that this is something that excites a lot of young Chinese people. It’s very 90s. I’m interested to know about this renewed interest in zines.

DG: I think we merely chose a form of expression. Some do it through photography, some through videos, some through fashion. Ours is the same. Just a zine - something tangible through which we can express our observation of the world.

KL:为什么选择zine这个形式？我发现最近很多中国的年轻人都特别喜欢zine。 是怀旧90年代吗？我对现在年轻人对zine的看法挺有兴趣的。

DG:我觉得这就是一种表达方式。有的人可能是通过拍照片，拍视频，穿衣服来表达。我们只是选择了这种方式，所谓的一本zine：一个看得见摸得到的东西用来表达我们对世界的观察。

KL: How much of the zine is designed by you? I’ve noticed a lot of cool typography and photos.

DG: I do the overall design, but the content is a collaborative effort between Li Shanshan and me. She took most of the photos and we thought of the text together. The topics were chosen by both of us through discussions. For example, the Dao Xiang Cun piece was suppose to just be an illustrated guide to what’s yummy at the bakery, but after telling her the idea she told me that her grandma’s house was always filled with pastries from Dao Xiang Cun. The whole thing then turned into a story about her grandma.

KL: 杂志里大概有多少是来自你的设计？我能看到很多好玩儿的字体和相片。

DG: 总体的设计是我来完成的，但整个杂志的内容是我和李珊珊一起做的。很多照片是她拍的，文字是我们一起想的，选题也是在我俩的交流过程中完善的。比如稻香村：我本来想做的只是一个图鉴，但是跟她碰完之后她告诉我她姥姥家总是吃稻香村，所以最后这个主题就变成了一个她姥姥家的故事。

KL: Would you say the content’s quite personal? Stories and things like that?

DG: Actually I don’t think our content is, but our approach is very personal because we only choose to document what we want. My original intention for this zine was to preserve my memories of food, especially the food experience particular to Chinese people, because this hasn’t been done properly before. The food habits of different families can reflect a lot of things, like the shift that’s happening in our society right now. What I want to do is to document this like it’s been done in the west. We haven’t done this from the perspective of a small unit, such as family or the individual.

KL: 你觉得你们的内容是很personal的吗？比如故事什么的？

DG: 其实我觉得内容并不是很personal，但我们的表达方式很personal，因为我们只去选我们想记录的东西。我做这个杂志的初衷是想保存对食物的记忆，尤其是中国人的，因为之前这个没有被很好的记录下来。我们每个家庭吃东西的历史都能反映很多东西，包括我们现在经历的这种社会的变迁。我想做的就是把这个东西记录下来。像国外一样，只不过我们还没有；没有从个人，从家庭，从小单位的角度记录我们跟食物的关系。

KL: How do you go about getting this out to people? How do you promote?

DG: We printed 1000 copies for the first volume and gave them out completely free of charge. We distributed the zines in the cafés and bars around here: School, Zarah, Más, etc. A lot of our readers saw the zine in these places and thought it was cool. Some friends have even sent me screenshots of the zine appearing on the Wechat Moments of friends of friends. The zines gradually found themselves in the eyes of people who really enjoy them, so I think our stuff is getting to the right people.

KL: 你是怎样宣传这个的？

DG:做第一期的时候我们印了一千本，完全免费。我们把这些杂志放到了这附近的一些咖啡厅，酒吧，比如 School，Más, 等等。有很多读者是只在这些地方看到了，觉得不错。还有一些朋友转发给我朋友的朋友发在朋友圈上的截图，然后又流传到别的地方。所以我觉得我们的东西真的有接触到喜欢这种东西的人手上。

KL: Is that the full scope that you want? Getting it to the right people in this neighborhood? Or do you have bigger hopes? What is your goal?

DG: Our goal wasn’t just to distribute within this neighborhood to begin with. We have a weibo (the chinese equivalent of twitter) account of around 1000 followers spread across the country. They see our content on weibo, and follow us because they genuinely like it. After the release of volume 1, a lot of people started asking us for copies of the zine. At that time we received a lot of photos people took of the zine in their rooms. Based on my observations, the bulk of our followers is made up of high school and college students. I think it’s because they think our stuff is unpretentious. Even though we’re older than them, we don’t impose a great distance between them and ourselves. We have a section in our weibo reserved for comments and letters from readers, for them to show the interesting things in their lives. I think our goal is… I want to make something that all Chinese people can understand and enjoy; I want to let them tell their stories. But of course, people interpret things differently, and some people only see the surface while others can grasp a deeper understanding.

KL: 你觉得目前这个东西覆盖的范围是你满意的吗？只是给这儿附近喜欢的人看就好了，还是你有更大的期望？你的目标是什么？

DG:其实我们的目标最早也不局限于这个neighborhood。我们的微博有大概1000多个来自全国各地的粉丝。他们在我们的微博看到我们的东西，因喜欢而关注。我们在第一期出版后也在微博上宣传了，结果很多人像我们索要这个杂志。当时我们收到了来自不同地方的人在他们的房间里给杂志拍的照片。实际上我现在观察的话，我们的很多粉丝是高中生和大学生。我也在想是为什么，可能是他们觉得我们的东西不装吧。虽然我们比他们大很多，可是我们做的东西没有距离感。我们微博上有个栏目叫读者来信，用来展示他们生活中好玩的东西。我觉得我们的定位是。。我想做一个所有中国人都能看懂并喜欢的东西，让他们说他们自己的故事。但不同的人对内容的读解程度是不同的。大部分人可能只看到比较表面的，而更忠实的读者可能对我们的东西能感受到更深一层的理解。

KL: What do you think will happen with the zine scene in Beijing? What do you think of the future of print?

DG: Everybody’s saying that print is dying, but I don’t think so. The most irreplaceable trait of books is that they are objects, and as long as the human desire for ownership persists, books will be ok. The human yearning for tangible objects will never go away. I think the most precious thing about independent publishing is that every item preserves an attitude, a thought, a perspective of the world. One doesn’t just read a book or flip through a zine; through the process, one gets to meet and have a conversation with another person. I think this is invaluable and will push the medium to become even bigger.

KL: 你觉得北京的zine的氛围如何？你对书和印刷产品的未来有什么看法？

DG: 虽然大家说书要消亡了，但我不认同。书最不可取代的一点是它是一种物质，而人对物质总会有一种占有的渴望。人对触摸的向往是永远不会消失的。我觉得独立出版的东西更可贵的是每一个东西都保存了一个想法和对世界的看法。我觉得这个其实是最珍贵的：你不只是读了一本书，翻了一本zine，而是像认识了一个人一样，和这个人聊了会天儿。所以我反而觉得这种媒体方式会越来越大。

KL: Tell me some more about your personal project.

DG: A couple of years ago my friends (Li Bowen and Tao Ying) and I started a blog called ‘The Gaze of Youth’. We collect people’s stories from their student years. I was curious about other people’s high school lives because I didn’t have a very good one. Another reason for this project is that there isn’t enough analysis of teenagers, or the teenage experience, in China. This stage is an integral part of growth, and teenagers going through it are very sensitive. People often bear the attitude of “You’re young therefore you need care”, when kids at that age are actually already very knowledgeable about what’s going in the world and in themselves. It’s a faulty attitude. In the beginning I used a survey format for this project, but slowly realized that it wasn’t the right approach. It took me a while before finding another medium, which is now my blog. There are two parts to the blog: the main page shows a bunch of different pictures of people looking straight at the camera when they were teenagers. The story only appears after clicking on a picture. I wanted to have this combination of story and photography because I believe that photos don’t lie. Sadness can’t hide behind the guise of a smile in a picture - only the most spontaneous and authentic emotions can come through. Hence, the url of the website is: wokandejian (I Can See).

KL: 跟我聊聊你自己现在在做的东西/项目吧

DG:我前几年开始和几个朋友（李博闻、姚莹）做了一个博客，叫青少年之眼，用来收集不同的年轻人青少年时期的故事。比如初，高中时期真实的经历。这个项目开始的起因是因为我的高中生活过的不愉快，所以我对其他人的故事很好奇。还有一部分是因为中国对Teenager这阶段的研究不够。实际上这个阶段是很重要的，经历这个阶段的人也很敏感。这个时候的人其实已经知道很多事情了，但很多时候人们有一种“从上而下”的态度，比如：“你是青少年，我要关爱你。”其实这些全都是不对的，因为那个时候人已经挺成熟的了。我一开始做的是问卷的形式，但慢慢觉得这种方式不对，就停了一段时间，直到我觉得可以以博客的形式来表达这些内容。这个博客有两个部分：打开页面之后，你可以看到很多人青少年时期的照片。点到照片之后才能看到这些人的故事。有一点像摄影和故事结合的一种东西。我之所以这么想是因为照片是不会骗人的。你在不开心的时候，不管怎么勉强的笑，都看起来不太开心。我觉得照片是最能真实地捕捉到人的状态的。而且我要求所有人都去选他们直视镜头的照片。所以博客的域名是wo kan de jian。

KL: That’s an awesome idea! Do you consider what you do there an art project? A collection of stories? Writing? What would you consider it to be?

DG: I just collect real people and their real stories and emotions. I don’t know what the correct academic label is.

KL: 这个方式很有意思，很不错啊。你怎么归类这个博客呢？是一个艺术project，一堆故事？写作？

DG: 我觉得就只是收集了真实的人和他们真实的故事和体会。我也不知道学术的标签应该是什么。

KL: So, you think it’s important to give voice to the youth of China? This is why you’re doing it?

DG: Not only that, because I think having a voice is not very difficult. In comparison, communication is so much more important. Cultivating communication was a really important goal for me when I started the blog. There are so many different relationships and tropes in high school: the bully, the bullied, the class clown, the wallflower. People of different cliques and labels don’t give a shit about each other. So when a ‘good student’ hears the story of a ‘bad student’, he might begin to understand that person more. I saw a high school friend of mine the other day who said she’d seen the story of a ‘bad student’ from our school on the blog and felt very surprised. I think this understanding is an essential part of eliminating prejudice because this kind of prejudice doesn’t leave us when we move on from high school; it’s simply magnified during that period.

KL: 所以你觉得给中国的年轻人声音是很重要的事儿？这是你做这件事情的原因吗？

DG: 我觉得不仅仅，因为发出自己的声音很容易。相比来讲彼此之间的沟通更重要。我当初做 “青少年之眼” 很重要的一个目的就是沟通。在学生时代每个人都有不同的角色。有被欺负的，有欺负别人的，有的默默无闻，有的是明星。那个时候这些不同的标签和群体都是互相不待见的。当一个 “好学生” 看到一个 “坏学生” 的故事，他可能就会改变他对这个 “坏学生” 的想法。我前几天正好见了一个高中同学，她看见了我博客里一个 “坏学生” 的故事，就跟我说没想到谁谁谁还会这么想。所以我觉得这种沟通是很重要的。最终的目的是想消除大家对彼此的偏见，因为这种偏见不止停留在这个阶段，只不过在高中的时候会被放大，更加明显。

KL: How do you go about recruiting these young people to share their stories? Are these people teenagers now, or people reflecting on their teenage lives?

DG: The storytellers are all grown-ups. I don’t specifically look for teenagers, because they haven’t had enough time to process their time spent as teenagers. There isn’t enough clarity and hindsight in their perspective. After they’ve grown up, their angle becomes wider and their thoughts have more depth. More importantly, adults can look back on their time spent as teenagers and see how the events of that phase of their lives shape their mentality now, and how the effects of that period influence their assessment of their past.

KL: 你怎么找到这些愿意分享自己的故事的人？这些人是学生，还是成年人回想自己的学生时代？

DG: 他们现在都是成年人了。我没有刻意去选很年轻的人，因为当人没有成长到一定的年纪时，他对以前那段时间的观察和回想不会很清晰。他长大之后重新看，会有新的看法，看事情的角度也会不太一样。更重要的是在他成长一段时间后，会发现他现在的状态也是和那个时候有关的；在他现在这种状态里，他又是怎样去回想那段时间。

KL: How many generations are you planning to cover? Just ba ling hou and jiu ling hou? Would you consider going back, talking to parents or even grandparents about their high school experience?

DG: I don’t plan on interviewing my parents because their environment is so different from ours. I don’t think there’s any room for comparison. My capability allows me to have the most in-depth experience with my peers. The most important to me is what’s around me: the people of my generation. Because we grew up in a similar environment, we faced similar problems. When we were in school, a plethora of novelties began to come to China: Nike, MP3s, hamburgers, fried chicken, different snacks, etc. Our memories are imbedded in these items. I think I’ll stick to my generation for now. Perhaps ever generation needs an archivist of some sort, there’s just no need for me to do that for my parents.

KL: 你打算概括几个年代呢？只有80后，90后，还是想时间再倒流一些，去了解你的爸妈或者爷爷奶奶的高中时代？

DG: 其实我并不打算去采访我的父母，因为他们那个时代跟我们太不一样了。我觉得没有可比性。最关键的，或者我力所能及的，就是我周围的这些人。顶多是80后，90后。因为我们处在同样的时代，遇到的问题都是差不多的。像我们在上学的时候，刚开始有了国外的名牌球鞋，随身听，汉堡，炸鸡，不同的零食，都会带有我们的记忆在里面。还是先做跟我的年龄差不多的吧。也许每个时代都需要有记录者，只不过我没必要去记录我父母那辈的。我就记录我这一代的就好了。

KL: Is there an element of education to what you’re doing? Or are you just sharing stories with peers, people who’ve had the same experiences. Would you like the outsiders, whether they are foreigners, older people, or even younger people, to look at this and gain some knowledge? For example, getting a low score on the gaokao does not make you a bad person.

DG: I didn’t start doing this just for documentation, not nostalgia. Anyone can see it. For example, older people… like a teacher. A teacher can read a story that a student has written and gain insight into the student’s thought process. He might even realize that he’s made some mistakes. There was a teacher in my team when I first started doing the surveys who felt touched after reading some of the stories. I also want the younger kids to see this, because it’s so important that they realize their experience is not singular. There are other people going through it as well. No matter how times change, certain things about that stage of life are universal. They can take many forms, but the struggles and emotions of those times are present in every generation. I hope I can give them some support in that aspect.

KL: 你所做的这些有没有一部分是希望可以启发别人的？还是你只是喜欢和同龄的，有同样经历的人分享故事？你是否希望一些不曾有过同样经历的人，例如外国人，老一辈儿的，甚至年轻一辈儿的，可以看到这个然后得到什么启发？比如说，高考失利不代表你是“坏学生”，或者坏人。

DG: 我当时想做这个不是为了怀旧，是把当时的经历都保存下来。任何人都可以看。老的人，比如说老师，可以看。老师看了就会知道当时学生是怎么想的，或者认识到他当时做的是错误的。我刚开始做调查问卷的团队里就有一个老师，看到我们收集的故事也说过有所触动。更年轻的人我也希望能让他们看到。因为对他们更重要的是知道，“不是我一个人这样想。”不管时代怎么变换，那个阶段经历的很多事情都是相似的。虽然外在的表现可能不一样，但是那时候的心情和挣扎我觉得都是一样的。希望在这儿能给他们一些支持吧。
KL: Do you always cover Chinese food? Is this a purely Chinese experience? Do you ever look at western food or anything outside of the Chinese sphere?

DG: I’m not categorizing by any boundaries. I want to document all forms of food and dining that are visible in Chinese society at the moment. There’s a lot of Western and Eastern clash around us that I’m pretty interested in. The weird innovations and clashes we see now are the product of everything that’s happening in this stage of our society; they reflect very realistic characteristics of modern day China.

KL: 你目前只在做与中餐有关的食物吗？这是一个非常中式的经历吗？你会考虑西餐或者是中国之外的一些与食物有关的文化吗？

DG: 我觉得不是按国界分类。我想记录下现在在中国社会里你能看到的一切餐饮形式。其实我们周围有很多中西式的碰撞。我对这个挺感兴趣的，因为只有在中国现在这个阶段才会有某一些奇怪的发明，但它们都真实的反映了这种样貌。

KL: The point of Loreli is to help young and emerging artists promote themselves. Is there anything you want to say?

DG: This might sound a bit unrealistic or romantic, but I want to let more people know what China is really like. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about the kind of emotions, practices, or affections that are uniquely Chinese yet simultaneously ubiquitous around the globe. I want to capture these things using my abilities and my format. I want to document. People can see it if they want, do whatever they want.

KL: Loreli 希望帮助年轻和新兴的艺术家说出他们的真实想法。你有什么想说的么？

DG: 我觉得这个话有点儿大了，但是我就是想更多的告诉外面的人真实的中国是什么样子的。我一直在想什么样的情感、做法或者情怀是中国人独特的，又放之四海皆准的。我用我的擅长，我的表达，去做一个记录者，去把这些记录下来。别人想看就可以看，想怎么样就怎么样。

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