Hole in the Wall – Crazy Ideas on the Subway

小小店铺 - 地铁狂想曲

Zine

独立杂志/同人志

Interview April 2nd Alba Café, Gulou

于4月2日 鼓楼 Alba Café 采访

KL: How did you guys get started in this? Do you come from an art background or a zine background?

Shui: Basically, we’re high school friends. We actually had the same art class in school and then we ended up doing the same degree in college. We went to universities in different countries. She went to Canada…

Jinna: And America.

Shui: Slash America and then I went to the UK. We both studied illustration.

Jinna: I don't know what the UK taught in illustration but in America, illustration was more into drawing and seeing what you see and less metaphorical. That’s what I feel like.

Shui: And then the UK was more about ideas and concepts and coming up with your own style of drawing. We kind of reunited 2 months ago. I moved back to Beijing and Jinna was already here. When we met we realised we both wanted to do something related to illustration.

KL：你们是如何开始从事这行的？你们读的是艺术类专业还是独立杂志类专业？

Shui：其实我们是高中同学，当时一起上同一门艺术课，之后大学里进修同一门专业。我们在不同的国家念大学，她在加拿大...

Jinna：和美国..

Shui: 而我去了英国。我们的专业都是插画。

Jinna：我不太了解英国插画的教学模式，美国的插画教学给我的感觉更多是描绘你所看到的，不需要太多寓意。

Shui:英国的插画更多注重想法，概念，并且提倡绘画创作要有自己的风格。我们两个月前才聚到一起，我搬到北京的时候，Jinna已经在这了。我们见面后才一拍即合，决定做点插画设计

KL: It sounds awfully fateful. So you knew each other in childhood ended up studying the same thing and then ended up back here at the same time. So what was the catalyst for starting this project?

Jinna: I feel like I wasn’t really drawing every day and I really missed drawing. We were kinda pushed into more of the design world where it’s easier to make money. So, I wanted to draw every day so we were like, hey, why don't we talk to Beijing people and it started off from that.

Shui: Yeah, exactly. I think we realised that we both like drawing people. A lot of our works involve people and portraits so we thought the most accessible resource is around us in Beijing and it’s interesting and we want to record it. Jinna came up with the phrase hole in the wall on a whim and that became the title of our zine and the theme of our zine as well.

KL：你俩缘分好诡异，所以你们童年时就知道彼此在做同样的事情，接着在同一时间来到同一地方，那么是什么促使你们展开这个项目呢？

Jinna：其实回国后我很少创作，我非常怀念作画的感觉，而且感觉我俩被迫推入到一个容易盈利的绘画环境，加上我想每天画画，想有人和我说：“hey，为什么不和北京人聊会天儿。”然后以此为作画的契机。

Shui：是的。我们都喜欢画人物，我们有好多作品都是和人物、肖像相关的。目前离我们最近的资源就是北京的人儿，我们想记录下有趣的人物。Jinna一时兴起想到一个短语“Hole In The Wall”,于是我们索性将其用为杂志的标题。

KL: So speaking of resources, do you consider the zine itself to be a resource for people considering it gives a brief character summary (it's quite amusing reading it with the marginalia you make)? Do you expect people to go through it and think, that seems like my kind of person maybe I'll head down to DADA?

Jinna: We kind of wanted to see what different people do because Beijing is so big and people move in different circles and I feel like whoever comes to where our paths cross their paths, we wanted to record and see what they do. We don't really talk to people about deep stuff until like here’s an excuse to talk to them about their lives.

Shui: People love to talk about themselves. People really do. When you ask them, can I interview you, they're like, yeah, why not? People just love to talk. It's interesting because it's also kind of like an icebreaker for us, an excuse to talk to people. We met a lot of people just by asking, “can we interview you for our zine?”

KL：谈到资源，你的杂志本身有给读者提供人物简介吗？（其实读你们小册里的旁注还挺幽默的）你希望读者读完后这样想吗：“哦，我也许是去DADA那种类型的人”？

Jinna：我们想要了解不同的人在做些什么，因为北京太大了，人们来自五湖四海，不论我们遇见什么样的人，都想记录下来，然后了解他们的现状。除非我们有合理的借口，不然不会去讨论太深的话题。

Shui：他们确实很乐意聊自己，当你问他们：“请问我可以采访你吗？”他们会很乐意说：“可以啊！”他们非常喜欢聊天，有趣的是有时候借口很像一个破冰游戏，让我们更接近他们。

KL: So they are all strangers?

Shui: Most of them.

Jinna: Half of them.

Shui: Some of them are strangers.

KL：你们的采访对象都是陌生人吗？

Shui：大部分是。

Jinna：多半是。

Shui：有些是陌生人。

KL: How do you choose a target?

Jinna: I feel like, depending on if they look interesting or if they’re there and we’re interviewing one person they look over and we are like, “do you want to be interviewed as well?”

Shui: We kind of categorised different social groups at first. We had different social groups like the underground hip-hop rappers and agricultural hippies, then after awhile we kind of just smooshed them together. Whoever we thought was interesting was worth interviewing so we did.

Jinna: All of them spoke English except for one.

Shui: Oh yeah, a few of them actually. One who spoke Cantonese as well so it’s kind of a mix and we translated it in our heads into English.

Jinna: So it’s our own perspective of what they said.

KL：你们如何确定受众人群？

Jinna: 我主要看他们长得是否有趣，还有当我在采访的时候，如果有人来回看我们的话，我会问：“你也想接受采访吗？

Shui：我们当初先是划分不同的社会群体，有地下嘻哈饶舌歌手，有本土嬉皮士，最后我们把他们混合，哪个有趣，我们就采访哪个。

Jinna：他们中只有一个不说英语。

Shui: 噢，对，大部分都说英语，有一个人说粤语，还混着英文，我们最后会把他说的翻译成英文。

Jinna：所以这些翻译中会有我们个人的理解。

KL: Are you mainly interested in young Chinese people or are you looking at foreigners as well?

Jinna: I don't think we have a type.

Shui: Anyone who has an unusual lifestyle. Not the normal nine to five job, anyone who does unusual things or has alternative lifestyles, I guess.

KL：你们主要关注的是中国年轻人，还是老外？

Jinna：我们并没有特意关注哪一种类型的人。

Shui：我觉得任何有着不同生活方式的人，任何不朝九晚五工作的人，我们都感兴趣。

KL: And you are going out to venues purely for this project or are you just conveniently using where you were going out to anyway.

Jinna: We’re going out to do it.

Shui: We actually sought out some of these people, like the Supreme guy.

Jinna: We went to the Supreme shop in Sanlitun because a lot of the people looked really interesting there so we interviewed them.

Shui: A lot of them who worked there were actually DJs and musicians. We were actually planning to interview the owner because Jinna knows him but we ended up interviewing some of the employees because they seemed interesting and we realised when we were talking to them that they are actually musicians and they were getting excited talking about how they used to DJ and stuff.  I also went to a farmers market because I wanted to walk around and whoever looked interesting just ask them, can I interview you? Then, like Jinna said, when you're doing that, other people look over and then you interview them as well.

KL：你去场地纯粹是为了这个项目还是有时候出去玩顺便看下场地？

Jinna: 我们是出去玩的时候顺便看下场地。

Shui：我们也确实有特意去找一些人采访，比如the Supreme这家店的人。

Jinna：我们去了三里屯的Supreme，因为那里有很多有趣的人。

Shui：在那里工作的大部分是DJ和音乐家，我们本来是要是去采访the Supreme的店主，因为Jinna认识他，但最后成了采访店里的员工，因为这些员工看上去很个性，后来发现他们都是音乐家。他们很乐意分享关于过去做DJ时的故事。我还去了一个农民市集，因为我想去那转转看有没有什么有趣的人，我问他们：“请问我可以采访下你吗”，紧接着，就像Jinna说的，当我采访别人的时候，会有一群人朝这边看，然后我接着采访他们。

KL: Do you think part of it is that people want to see a drawing of themselves?

Jinna: Yeah, definitely.

Shui: They’re always interested to see how people draw them, I guess. A lot of them want to take pictures of it and they ask if they can keep it. Stuff like that. I think it’s interesting because we have similar styles but the way we draw is still kind of different – the way we perceive the same person. I think people like to see a different perception of themselves.

KL：大部分人只是想看自己的画像，才接受你采访吧？

Jinna：是的，肯定是。

Shui：他们很好奇，别人会怎么描绘自己，很多人会给图片拍照，并询问是否能带走。我俩的的绘画风格很相似，但在描绘方式上稍有不同，我们对同一个人的观察角度不同，这点还挺有趣的，因为人们喜欢看不同角度的自我。

KL: Have you ever offended anyone? Has anyone ever looked at the drawing and said, Ugh! My nose isn’t that big!?

Jinna: Mmhm. Yeah, so I drew my friend as I saw and he was like, why did you draw me so fat? I was like [groans awkwardly]. I didn’t mean to!

Shui: Not every single sketch made it into the zine so there was some, at least that I did, that weren’t good enough. I didn't want to offend anyone so I didn't put them in.

KL：你有得罪过谁吗？有没有人曾对着图说：“啊！我的鼻子怎么那么大！”

Jinna：恩..有吧，一次我客观地画我朋友，我朋友问我：“你怎么把我画得那么胖？”然后我很尴尬的回应：“我不是故意的！”

KL: How long did it take you to put together this first issue?

Jinna: We interviewed people in a week. Every day after work we would try to seek out people and then one day, she skipped work and we just put together it together. So one week. Ten days.

KL：你花多久时间才准备好出版这一期？

Jinna：我们采访了一周，每天工作完后尽量再找其他人，有一天，我们干脆请假翘班，直接将所有的图片整理到一起。所以应该是一周，10天。

KL: That’s very quick. How prolific do you plan to be? How frequently will you put them out?

Jinna: We have an idea for the next one but I’m not too sure when we’re gonna start it.

Shui: We have a lot of ideas. Actually, we don't just want to make a zine, we want to make a brand and then we’ll do stickers, t-shirts and tote bags, anything cool we can think of. Anything fun. Next zine? Maybe soon.

Jinna: Yeah. I feel like when we’re on the subway, we always come up with crazy ideas and she likes to draw people on the subway too. For our next project we’re not gonna sleep for 24 hours and then record everything. If it’s like fate or chance, whatever.

Shui: We were talking about being nocturnal and we thought, what if we record everything that happens in a night in Beijing? Go around everywhere and just record everything.

KL：速度好快啊！你们计划出版多少本杂志？多久出版一次？

Jinna：等我们有新想法才开始下一期吧，我不确定什么时候开始。

Shui：其实我们有很多想法，我们不仅想做独立杂志，还想把它做成品牌，之后我们会做贴纸，T恤和手提袋，任何我们能想到的，有趣的事情，我们都会去尝试。至于下一期杂志呢？也许很快就出版了。

Jinna：对！每次在地铁上，我们都能想出很疯狂的想法，她甚至在地铁上画画呢。我们准备下一次24小时不睡觉，没有任何计划地顺着感觉，在一晚内记录一切，这一切也许是命中注定。

Shui：我们在讨论关于夜间的作品时，想着不如晚上出去作画，于是我俩会选一个晚上出去溜达，随便画些东西。

KL: Just leaving it to fate?

Shui: Yeah, pretty much. I think most things we do aren’t planned. They’re on a whim, mainly.

KL：就是顺其自然？

Shui：对，我俩不会特意安排，主要还是一时兴起，随心随欲就好。

KL: So you have these hundreds of subway ideas that are not really thought through but you follow them in an incubatory phase?

Jinna: Pretty much.

KL：所以你们没有认真思考过这些在地铁上作画的想法，但你们其实有在跟从这些想法对吗？

Jinna：对的。

KL: How old are you?

Jinna: I’m 24 this year but still 23.

Shui: Same.

KL：你们都多大了？

Jinna：现在23岁，今年24岁。

Shui：我也是。

KL: Is this your first project doing something together, but also individually, doing something creative in this way?

Jinna: I made a lot of zines in San Francisco because I think Oakland and San Franciso are really concentrated on independent things. Like little pop-up stores or crafts. They are really concentrated on handmade stuff so I made a few zines, collaborated with a few people but this is the first time doing it in Beijing.

Shui: For me, I think once I got out of uni, I was focussing on building a career so I kind of put illustration aside. It was only when I came back to Beijing and met up with Jinna did I think, I wanna do this again so this is my first project really. Proper illustration project that is, especially in Beijing. So I’m quite excited to do more.

KL：你们的作品都分别保留了自己的风格，这是你们第一次合作吗？

Jinna：我在旧金山的时候，做过很多独立杂志，因为旧金山和奥克兰的独立文化很浓郁，比如临时潮店和手工品。他们很注重手工制作品，所以我和别人一起设计了一些独立杂志，但这是我第一次在北京做这个。

Shui：我呢，毕业后，重心转移到工作上了，基本上将插画丢到一旁，直到我回北京和Jinna见面，这才燃起再次重拾插画的激情。所以我第一次做这个项目，而且我还很期待做更多这种类型的项目。

KL: How do you feel about the scene here? You were saying in San Francisco there's such a big creative scene. Do you feel like this is a great place to start a project like this? The zine culture here is still very small and slowly emerging. Do you think this is the right time for it to burst out?

Shui: Definitely.

Jinna: Yeah, yeah because Beijing is changing so fast and now it's like everyone is getting used to the change and it's a time when you can record things. Like record the change or, you know the people who are doing the demolition zines — they're recording history. I've been talking to a lot of people and they've been saying that in the Gulou scene, a lot of them love handmade stuff. They're bringing it back to the more independent making culture. Which is really nice.

Shui: DIY stuff. I guess, compared to London, there’s tonnes of zines in London but I feel like it’s really quite matured. Underground culture isn’t really underground anymore. A lot of people are doing so I think, in Beijing, it’s great that we’re kind of at the beginning of it. At least, there is so much potential and it’s great that we’re part of this development.

Jinna: Yeah, and Loreli, what you guys did for the art market reminded me of being in Oakland where there would be this art block. Every first Friday there’d be an art block party where everyone comes out and sells their own stuff. A whole street’s closed down, people play music, there’s food. It just really reminded me of that. I thought, Ah, I feel like home!

KL：你觉得这里的创作环境如何？你之前提到旧金山创作氛围很好，你觉得北京是一个适合这个项目的地方吗？这里的独立杂志文化很小众，并且才刚萌芽，你觉得现在是合适的时机吗？

Shui：当然是啊！

Jinna：因为北京日新月异，感觉人们习惯了变化的节奏，是时候去记录些东西了。最近有一本记录北京变化的独立杂志，我觉得它其实也是历史的记载。我和很多人讨论过，他们一直在说鼓楼现场有很多手工类的制作，他们正将独立制造的文化带回来，这挺好的。

Shui：类似于DIY这种，伦敦有很多这种独立杂志，感觉整个市场会更成熟点，地下文化不仅仅是在地下了。我觉得北京有很多人在做这样的事情，我们在初期发展阶段挺好的，至少这里有很多发展潜能。

Jinna：对，Loreli上次办的艺术市集让我想起了奥克兰的艺术街区。每周五，会有很多小贩来到这个街区售卖物品，整条街区都关闭了，大家都享受在音乐和美食中。那天的艺术市集让我有种回到家的感觉！

KL: It would be great to be able to go do it in the street but, alas… I think we would have problems very, very quickly. I know when I was a kid and zines were a thing in the 90s, it would be record stores. We’d go in there and there would be a whole wall dedicated to zines and you’d see guys going in stuffing their photocopied zines in there. Who is helping you out here? Where is the support coming from?

Shui: So far we haven’t really distributed that much so. I think the first time we distributed was at the exhibition I took part in — Questions Vol. 2.  It was organised by Someet, a platform for creatives to post and organise events. [They got young people to post questions they have online, anything to do with life, relationships, family, career…basically anything. Then on the day of the event they displayed these questions throughout the venue for participants to answer on post it notes. During the event they also displayed works by photographers, illustrators, designers.] I was supposed to sell it but I ended up giving it away for free to lots of people. The next day Jinna went to an art market and sold it there. So at the moment, we really haven’t been distributing that much.

KL：要是能在街上举办这种市集就好了，但是，哎....我们会惹祸上身。我记得在90年代，我还是小孩时，独立杂志只出现在一些唱片店里，每次我进去，都会看到有专门一整面墙是独立杂志专用的，你会看到很多人将一些影印杂志粘到墙上。所以，是谁在支持你们，帮助你们完成这些的？

Shui：目前为止，我们还没大范围发售那么多独立杂志，第一次出售是在Questions Vol. 2这个展览上，这个展览由一个创意的活动组织平台Someet举办的，[活动前，他们在网上征集年轻人的问题，关于爱情，家庭，工作，生活等一系列话题，然后在活动举办当天，让参与者现场回答这些问题。其中，他们还展出了一些摄影师，插画师，设计师的作品。]我本来是准备销售我的作品，最后还是免费赠送了。还有一次是Jinna参加一个艺术市集，倒是销售了一些，所以我们其实还没有大范围的售卖。

KL: Do you think it will be difficult to make a profit? Traditionally they were always free, that was the culture but do you think this is something that will develop in a way that creative will be making a profit?

Shui: Hopefully, because everything that creatives do, there was time and effort put into it and they do deserve some money for it, some credit for it. Sure, in an ideal world it would be free but we all have to eat. We all have to earn a little bit from it so hopefully, it can become, obviously not the main source of income, but a small part of it at least.

Jinna: I also liked how everyone was supporting each other at Loreli. That was really refreshing to see.

Shui: Everyone supporting each other and helping each other out. We don't want other people to step over us just because they think it’s just a photocopied pamphlet. A lot of people don’t understand what a zine is and don’t understand how much time and effort was put into it.

Jinna: But it’s also promoting us, for example, we put our QR code at the end of the zine so if we do end up giving it out for free then someone will look at it and think, maybe I want this illustrator to work for us or something like that. It's a way of promoting what could be eventually.

KL：你觉得这个盈利难吗？因为传统上的艺术玩意儿是免费的，因为它的文化底蕴，所以你希望你的创意作品会带来收益吗？

Shui：希望能吧，因为每一件艺术作品都需要大量时间和精力，相应的，也值得收获一些回报。当然，在一个理想社会，它可以是免费的，但现实社会里，我们归根到底都需要谋生。我们希望从中获取一些小小的回报，但它不会是我们收入的主要来源。

Jinna：我很好奇Loreli团队是如何扶持彼此的？这故事肯定让人耳目一新。

Shui：我们不希望人们简单地认为我们的杂志只是一个影印的小册子，很多人不明白什么是独立杂志，也不了解它的制作耗费多少时间和精力。

Jinna：我们赠送册子的同时是在推销自身，譬如我们将二维码留在小册子的尾页，在免费赠送完小册子后，也许会有人注意到：“啊，我想和他们合作。”这才是我们宣传的最终效果.

KL: I think the first step is teaching how to pronounce zine [like the end of magazine]. I’ve been hearing a lot around Beijing about zines [to rhyme with line]. I was hoping you would be able to tell me where to find zines because I can’t really think of anywhere except fRUITYSPACE where you could get them. Oh, and Wujin.

Shui: I saw on a wechat group, someone is launching a zine so I’m sure it’s popping up. More people are doing zines and stuff and it will be interesting. The event where I distributed our zine, a lot of people were interested and I think they kind of know about zines as well. It was only local Chinese as well so it’s not just the expat community that knows about zines. I think young, hipsterish, artistic Chinese know about it too. I think there will be more places where they’ll pop up.

KL：我觉得你们要做的第一步是教人们正确发Zine这个词。（magazine的尾音zine）我在北京听到好多人发成类似Line的尾音。我希望你们能告诉我北京除了 fRUITYSPACE和 Wujin有卖zine，哪里还能买到这种同人志？

Shui：我在一个微信群里看到有人在出售zine，所以我敢肯定这种文化在悄然萌芽。上次在我销售小册子的那个展览上，我发现有很多人对这个感兴趣，我猜他们对独立杂志这个概念多少有些了解。我觉得现在不仅外籍人士知道独立杂志的存在，很多年轻时髦的中国人也知道。我敢肯定将来会有越来越多的现场售卖独立杂志。

KL: How do you say zine in Chinese?

Shui: I don’t know. I told them magazine like zazhi (杂志) but kind of like a xiaoce (小册), a little book. I didn’t know what to call it.

Jinna: I was thinking about it because “zine “ comes from maga”zine” just a smaller magazine so if we could cut zazhi (杂志) it would kind of be zhi (志). [both laugh]

Shui: I think we’re still quite new to the scene. We didn't really think about how we were going to distribute it or anything, we kind of just did it for fun and we were just going to give it out to as many people as possible. I guess our next step now is to find ways to distribute it beyond our immediate circle.

KL：zine用中文怎么称呼？

Shui：我不太确定，我叫它杂志，或者小册，但不知道准不准确。

Jinna：我感觉zine因为是magazine衍生的，也就是更小的杂志。所以可以把杂去掉，叫它志。哈哈！

Shui：我们刚来到这个新环境，还不太熟悉，也没认真思考过发售方面的事情，我们做这个纯粹为了开心。我们也在尽可能的发售更多的独立杂志，我想下一步就是尽快找到这个圈子之外的发售途径。

Born in Tokyo and raised in Beijing and Canada, Jinna uses her free time to study and record cultural differences. She can be found in cafes, or on the street doing the 'Beijing squat', drawing her surroundings. Freelancing as an illustrator and graphic designer, she is currently working on a graphic novel that explains, through personal experiences, post WWII in Korea, China and Japan.

Shui is a wandering creative. Grown up in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Beijing and London, she has always been an outsider to her environment. Experimenting across various medium, including print, digital and moving image, she bases her work around the people she discovers. Her sketchbooks are filled with drawings of strangers in public places such as subways, cafes and bars. She tries not to judge her subjects by simply observing and recording. 

Jinna：自由插画家和平面设计师。出生于东京，在北京和加拿大长大。爱好研究和记录文化差异，喜欢游荡在咖啡馆和某条街上，以“北京蹲”的姿势作画。目前在为一本漫画小说做插画，她将通过个人经历，描绘二战中的中国，韩国和日本。

Shui：搞创意的“边缘”艺术家，曾在东京、香港、新加坡、北京、伦敦生活。善于使用图形影印、数字动态图像等媒介，热衷于在地铁、公交、小餐馆画人像速写。不崇尚以貌取人，只是观察和记录身边的人和事。

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