Ryan Monfared - Lurking in the Shadows

Photographer

Interviewed by Angela Li at Más on September 27

A: You primarily work in black and white. Only about 1/3 of the photos in the exhibition are color. Do you tend to see Beijing in b+w as opposed to color?

R: I really don’t shoot color much.  When I do I still see things in terms of contrast, lines, and shapes. It’s such a joy to shoot in color occasionally because you still look for the same juxtapositions that make strong black and white images, but have an extra element to accentuate things. The Mao wasn’t a colour photo in my mind but I like the contrast between his figure and the blue of the sky. 

A: What’s the story behind this photo?

R: I stumbled across that doorway.  What I like about it is that although it’s empty of players, it seems like they’ve only just left. The beads make you feel like you’re not invited, and I’ve always felt that way towards the mahjong rooms I’ve seen. They have an alien feel. They always seem off-limits, which makes them all the more attractive.

A: Is this a feeling common to photographing Beijing?

R: One of the most difficult things about taking photos in Beijing is the fact that even though people live in the public, they have very close-knit communities. Although they’re open and people are very welcoming, I often don’t want to violate their privacy. You want to let them be, let them exist. I think that’s probably how these new photos have developed: trying to capture Beijing moments without interrupting them. When I first started, I was very focused on candid people shots, but since returning from home after the summer I’ve felt increasingly uncomfortable with invading people’s space. Obviously I’d love to get pictures of people about their daily lives without any barrier, but that’s not the reality. You have the respect people’s space.

A: Is that why the girl at the pool table gave you a weird look in this photo?

R: Probably.

A: Do you make a point to talk to your subjects?

R: I try, but I’m an idiot and I’m not good at talking to people. In some situations I’ve talked to and connected to subjects, which has led to some good photos. The reason some of my photos came into existence is that I made a connection. I’m not always good at this though so it doesn’t happen as often as I would like.

A: Do you think it’s imperative for photographers in a city like Beijing to communicate with their subject? Does it change your photos?

R: It helps. My favorite photos of people that I’ve taken are the ones whose subjects I’ve had at least a little bit of a connection with. Those photos are good. I’m not really fond any other photos I’ve taken of people in Beijing apart from those two situations, and the ones where people were a part of the landscape. It’s a combination of my Chinese being poor and just being too shy. It’s hard to know who would want to have their photo taken and who might tell you to fuck off… in Chinese. I’m just an amateur photographer, I’m not trying to undermine the importance of permission. I’m gonna take photos regardless, but I try to do it in a way so that I’m the only one who might feel uncomfortable. When I took photos of these workers, it felt right.

A: In your mind, when does photography move from representation to becoming a creative act?

R: I think it lies somewhat in anticipating candid moments before they appear. When you’re out it is easy to miss interesting moments just because you’re not ready. The creative aspect for me is almost in imagining what might pop up in a certain place. It helps you to be ready to get the composition you want. I respect people who take candid photos of people, but I find it difficult to find a happy place between the authentic moments, shoving a camera in someone’s face, or having people pose. I don’t like any of these options at the moment. You might take an interesting photo of someone doing something that doesn’t represent them.

A: Does it matter if a photo doesn’t represent the subject in their truest sense?

R: That depends on how you feel about strangers. I love candid photos of strangers who were unaware of their photo being taken.

I have feelings of being a foreigner and not wanting to be the weird guy. I could do that and get some good pictures but it’s not what I want to be as a foreigner living in China. I want to maintain the felling that this place is my home and that I’m not just visiting.

A: How much of what you do is waiting for something to come up?

R: I do more and more waiting. Sometimes I fall in love with a space and can’t leave until I’ve attempted to do it justice. Especially clear Beijing days with great shadows. This is why I’ve fallen in love with bridges in Beijing.

A:  So it’s a mixture of waiting and being prepared.

R: Patience tends to be rewarding I find

 A: I love the bridge photo.

R: That was my attempt to justify the awesome shadows. It’s also a very unique structure. That is my best attempt yet of capturing that bridge so far. When I’m on the bridge looking at the shadows, I think that if I just wait a little longer and tolerate the sun hitting my head, the people element integral to the composition will appear and then it’s done.  Too often I lose patience and take a mediocre shot.  Patience, patience, patience.

A: Where does the creative aspect of photography come in?

R: It’s not a creative thing. It’s about documenting. I think you need to think somewhat creatively to document well though. You need to anticipate and that’s a skill I’m not finished learning. I want the pictures to be interesting photographically as well.

A: Let’s talk about film, the medium you use. What role does it play in what you do?

R: I like the limitations that film imposes upon you. I like hunting for things with my eyes not just with the camera. Photography for me is part of the enjoyment of exploring Beijing. I like to connect with the city and photography has really helped me to do that to some degree.

A: Do you think there are things that digital photographers have which you miss out on? Like being able to immediately assess and reshoot?

R: I can’t imagine not using film but I don’t think it’s truly superior to digital photography. That’s not why I use it anyway. Some people think film is inherently superior in quality or whatever, but I use it because I like the process, and I’m addicted to the feeling you get after waiting to see the results. I like having friends who are different kinds of photographers, because every one of them can do something I can’t. It’s not a competition. And at the end of the day who really cares about photos? [laughs] What’s the point? Let it all burn. It’s a pointless endeavor in a pointless age. That’s why I do photography, because it’s better to do something with no real purpose than to do nothing. There’s no point in doing anything so let’s do something.

Cao Yu 曹雨 – A Wonderful State of Androgyny

Artist

Email interview with Deva Eveland translated by Jacques Qu

DE:我想先从你的作品《泉》（Fountain）问起——这大概是整座博物馆所有展品中最具颠覆性的作品。我在不止一个参观者的脸上看到震惊的表情。你认为自己是一个颠覆性的艺术家吗？你在展示此类作品时，是否遇到过任何的反对或抵制？
 
曹雨:我虽算不上激进，但也不喜欢墨守陈规。在中央美术学院研究生毕业展的布展过程中收到通知，必须将作品《泉》撤出展览，没有商量的余地,原因是被认为作品太色情。我在找导师、系领导、院领导及美术馆相关人员解释作品，争取展出机会的同时，也做了最坏的打算：如果还是不准展出，我会每天搬着平板电视在展厅内播放视频。在展览开幕前的导师集体汇看会议上，绝大多数老师认可作品并不是色情的，而是关于身体，作品得以参展。展出后反应热烈，得到了很多老师，策展人及美术馆等机构负责人的关注和好评。

DE: I'd like to start with Fountain, which was probably the most provocative piece on display in the whole museum. I saw a look of shock cross the face of more than one viewer. Do you see yourself as a provocateur? Have you faced any resistance or backlash in displaying this kind of work?

CY: Although I wouldn’t call myself radical, I don’t like clinging to conventional ways, either. I got a notice during the preparation for the graduation exhibition in China Central Academy of Fine Arts that I had to withdraw my work, no room to negotiate. The reason was that my work was too obscene. I explained my work to my advisor, the dean of my department and my school, fighting for an opportunity, while at the same time thinking of the worst case scenario: if I still had to withdraw, I would bring a flat panel TV into the exhibition room to play the video. In the pre-meeting between the professors, most of them thought my work was not about obscenity, but about body, so it was given the green light. The reception was enthusiastic and my work got a lot of attention and recognition from many professors, curators and gallery owners.

DE: 这件作品和另一件著名的（也可以说是臭名昭著的）颠覆性艺术名同名，马塞尔·杜尚的《泉》。你是有意为之吗？
 
曹雨: 虽然杜尚的《泉》最有名，但其实“泉”在美术史上有着更丰富的含义，比如安格尔的油画《泉》，布鲁斯·瑙曼的《泉》。而我的《泉》更像是我与布鲁斯·瑙曼的对话，我用自己哺乳期的身体制造了一座具有雄性色彩的喷泉纪念碑。     

DE: The piece shares a title with another famous (or infamous) provocative work of art, Fountain by Marcel Duchamp. Is this intentional?

CY: Although Duchamp’s Fountain is the most famous one, “Fountain” has richer meaning in the art history, like Ingres’ The Fountain and like Bruce Nauman’s Self-Portrait as a Fountain. My The Fountain is more like my conversation with Bruce Nauman. I used my body at the time of breast-feeding to build a fountain monument with male characteristics.

DE：好的，如你所说，这两件名称同为《泉》的作品可能是更好的对照。它们看上去均有很鲜明的性别特征。我把安格尔的《泉》视作传统的、充满魅力的、娴静的女性裸体。与它截然相反的是，瑙曼的《作为喷泉的自画像》的肢体语言是傲慢、自信的（很典型的男性特征）。你的作品《泉》看上去似乎试图表现更为中性的特质。

曹雨:你的观点很正确也相当有意思。瑙曼的泉的确是带有鲜明的男性特征，指向也很明确，我的《泉》则是用女性身体呈现一种雄性色彩。向上喷射的乳汁让我感觉到一种阳刚的，释放的力量，所以这是一种精彩的雌雄同体的状态。

DE: Okay, now that you say it, those two Fountains are probably better reference points. They both seem like quite gendered works. I see Ingres' The Fountain as the traditional alluring & demure feminine nude. In contrast, the body language of Nauman's Self-Portrait as a Fountain is cocky and self-confident (stereotypically male traits). Your body-as-fountain piece seems to be aiming for something more androgynous.

CY: Your point is correct, and also very interesting. Nauman’s fountain shows distinctive male traits with clear symbols, while mine displays masculinity through a female body. The milk ejected upward makes me feel a masculine, explosive power, so it’s a wonderful state of androgyny.

DE：同样让我震撼的是：这件作品可以有截然不同的多种理解，这完全取决于不同的观者。对于一个保守的人来说，它可能被视作对公共道德的一种冒犯。对一个婴儿来说，它可以是一段关于食物的影像。对于一个有恋物癖的人来说，它可能会激发情欲。对其他人来说，它可能显得讨厌、恶心。对一个倡导母乳喂养的人来说，它可能代表一种政治上的宣言。你是怎么看的？

曹雨: 就个人而言，《泉》这个作品是在儿子到来之后，我的身体产生了奇妙的变化，开始源源不断地分泌乳汁。《泉》看起来是美丽而有爆发力的，但对于我来说却是有关疼痛的。频繁的乳腺炎让我不得不把堵塞在身体内部的乳汁释放出来。这时突然觉得自己的身体很奇妙，我想通过身体这个容器来塑造一座喷泉。向上喷射的白色乳汁让我感受到一种雄性和伟大。
     但我也很高兴《泉》能给观者带来完全不同的感受，可以引发人们的思考，这很令我欣慰。如若所有人看过后都是同一种感受，那就枯燥、干瘪多了。            

DE: It also struck me that this piece might understood quite differently depending on who was looking at it. To a conservative it might be perceived as an affront to public morals. To an infant it might be a video about food. To someone with a lactation fetish it might be erotic. To other people it might be icky and gross. To a breastfeeding advocate it might be a political statement. How do you see it? 

CY: Personally, the work Fountain depicts the time when I just had my son and changes happened in my body, which started to produce milk incessantly. Fountain appears beautiful and explosive, but to me it’s about pain. The frequent pain from mastitis forced me to release the milk trapped in my body. At that moment I felt how amazing my body is, and I wanted to create a fountain by using my body as a vessel. The white milk ejected upward made me feel a sense of masculinity and greatness. 

However, I’m also happy that Fountain can evoke completely different feelings in viewers and make them think. I’m very pleased. It would be boring and flat if everyone walked out with the same feeling.                     

 DE: 由于女性身体的怪异位置（水平、无脸），它对我来说具有风景画的特质，令我联想到生育或者自然的爆发（比如火山喷发）。这是你的初衷吗？
 
  曹雨: 在拍摄之前，我就觉得主角应该是乳房（孕育乳汁的容器），而非表演者的面部。而且，如果表演者的脸进入画面的话，必然会分散观者的注意力，进而会干扰作品的核心。当然如果是在拍摄色情录像的话，脸蛋是必须要放进来的。
     如果把喷射的乳汁视为一座喷泉，身体就是孕育生命和喷泉的容器，这和自然界的火山喷发有某种相关之处，并且我也认为视频的画面是古典和美丽的。所以你将它和自然爆发的风景画联系起来，我觉得是一个很有意思的想象。

DE: Because of the odd positioning of the female body (horizontal, faceless) it almost took on a landscape-like quality for me, conjuring up associations with fertility or natural eruptions. Was this your intention?

CY: Before the shooting, I already thought that the main character should be the breast (the vessel to create milk), not the face of the actress. Plus, if the face of the actress enters the picture, it would distract the viewer and interrupt the key point of the work. Of course, if what’s taped is porn, the face must be in it.

If the ejected milk is seen as a fountain, the body is the vessel to create life and the fountain. There is something in common with the natural eruption of volcanoes, and I think the scenes in the video are classical, beautiful. Therefore you would associate it with a landscape of natural eruption. I think it’s a very interesting image.

DE: 视屏中的这位女性是你还是一位女演员？这两者间的区别是否重要？
 
曹雨: 表演者就是我自己。哺乳期奇妙的身体的确令我感兴趣，令我着迷，我有一种强烈的欲望，要把这种感受转化并表达出来。我的身体最能诠释我所要表达的感觉。
    所以这个作品的最佳表演者只能是我自己，而不是其他任何人。

DE: Is the female in the video you or an actress? Is the distinction important?

CY: It’s myself. During the period of breast-feeding my body intrigued me and amazed me. I had a strong desire to transform this feeling and express it. My body could best illustrate the feeling I wanted to express.

So the actress for this work could only be me, not anyone else.

DE: 画布和雕像基座也颇具意趣。我把它们也解读为女性的形体。我的理解是否正确？

曹雨: 没错，作品《维纳斯》是一尊造型极简的女人体，我送给她一个女神的名字——维纳斯。《Mother 》的材料就是绷在木框上的空白画布，但我没有在上面绘制图像，而是在上面缝制了一个通道，它立即从平面的画面变成一个有着立体空间的雕塑。很明显它与女性身体的特征以及局部有关。

DE: The canvas and pedestal pieces were also interesting. I read them as being about the female form also. Is that accurate?

CY: Correct. The work Venus is a woman’s body in the minimalist style and I gave her a goddess’ name, Venus. The material of Mother is the blank canvas on the wooden frame, but I didn’t draw anything on it. I only sewed a passage on it, turning it from a flat surface into a three-dimensional sculpture. It is related in appearance to traits of women’s body or body parts.

DE: 在这些作品中，似乎有些东西被刻意隐藏在观者的视线以外。一件简单的白色底座并不那么有趣，但是它表面的裂隙暗示了里面隐藏着其他什么物体。那是什么？一个“请勿触摸”的标志让我不敢接近。那些画布也有类似的效果，我不住猜想在这些像是袜子缝成的东西里面藏着什么。它们大概有手臂的粗细，似乎人可以把手伸进画布里。你想作些说明吗？

曹雨:作品《维纳斯》和《Mother 》对我来说都是关于女性身体的。从造型特征上说，它们都带有孔洞，这激起不少观众的好奇和想象。这种好奇的窥视或者触摸欲望也折射了女性身体处于被观赏甚至窥视的境地。                 

    《维纳斯》没有古典女人体优美婀娜的身段，也没有光滑细腻的皮肤，它看起来就是一个呆板的方盒子。走近观察才能看到顶部的黑洞，它极易被人忽视。我在雕塑展台顶部打洞之后，它的内外就贯通起来，孔洞周围也被打磨光滑，露出原本的木头质地。孔洞与周围白色涂料所形成的边际构成女性身体特征的模样，进而指向对女性身体的暗示。曾经用于展示雕塑的展台如今变成了雕塑本身，成为一尊有着极简造型的女人体。《Mother No.1》中的细节象征着身体的缝痕和孕育生命的通道，在我眼里它并不是单纯的画布，而是伟大的母亲。

DE: With these pieces, it was like something was being purposefully hidden from the viewer. A plain white pedestal isn't that interesting, but a crevice in it seems to indicate there's something else hidden inside. What? A "no touching" sign kept me at bay. Likewise with the canvases, I wonder what's going on inside those stitched sock things. They're about the width of an arm, as though someone could reach right into the canvas. Any comment?

CY: For me, Venus and Mother are both about women’s bodies. In terms of the features of the figure, they both have holes, which attract people’s curiosity and imagination. The desire to peep or touch also reflects the fact that a woman’s body is considered something to be appreciated or peeped. 

Venus doesn’t have the slim, beautiful body of classical women, nor smooth, fine skins, but rather a stark cubic box. The black hole on its top can only be noticed when you get close, so it’s easily neglected. After I drilled a hole on top of the pedestal, its inner space is connected to the outside, and the rim of the hole was polished, exposing the original wooden texture. The hole and the surrounding white paint form the look of the body feature of a woman, which further indicates a woman’s body. The pedestal used to display sculptures is now the sculpture itself, in fact a woman’s body in a minimalist form. The details in Mother No.1 symbolize the scars on the body and the passage for life creation. In my eyes, it’s not just a canvas, but a great mother.

DE: 另外两件作品让我非常迷惑。我的中文大概处于幼儿园水平，因此我只能大概猜像你使用的材料和创作过程。你能具体描述一下吗？

曹雨: 作品《艺术家制造》是由哺乳期收集的18升母乳在经烘干后得来的。当它凝结成膏状，我把它攥在自己手心时，我感受到一种温热的力量，细腻绵软却十分有力。我在身体之外又重新抓握和感受那些曾经堵塞在我身体内部、令我疼痛难忍的物质。它给我的孩子带来营养与生命能量的同时，也给我留下了疼痛。当把它攥在手心的时候，与抓握雕塑泥的冷冰冰的感觉截然不同，我感受到了母爱的分量。它既是母爱，又是疼痛，对我而言它不再是任何其它材料，而是富有情感的排泄物，是艺术家自己身体生产并二次揉捏而来的物质。所有这些都交织在一起，因此我给它命名为《艺术家制造》。
   《粒粒皆辛苦》中，我以身体力行的方式揉捏我不经意剩下的米饭中的每一粒，用触觉体验物质，感知世界。随着日积月累，形态在不断地堆积，它呈现出了山包状的形态，积聚了我大量的劳作。它让我切身体会到了“粒粒皆辛苦”。                                                                                                                                           如果说《泉》是从身体内部释放出能量，那么粒粒皆辛苦的米粒则是我们身体每天摄入的能量来源。这些都发生在你我的日常生活中，只是我们没有有意识地凝视过。

DE: The other two pieces really baffled me. I read Chinese at about a kindergarten level, so I could only guess at the materials and your process. Could you elaborate a little bit?

CY: The work Made in Artist is made from dried milk from 18 litres of liquid collected in my breast-feeding period. When it condensed into balm, I held it in my hand. I felt a warm power, fine, soft, but with power. Holding it outside of my body, I sensed the very substance that was once trapped in my body and caused my pain. It left me with pain while delivering nutrition and power of life to my child. When holding it in hand, the feeling was opposite to the cold feeling from holding a lump of sculpture clay - I felt the weight of motherly love. It’s motherly love, and also pain. But to me, it’s no longer any material, but an excretion rich in emotion, a substance created by the artist’s body and through a round of kneading. Putting all these together, I called it Made in Artist.

In the work Every Grain Costs A Drop of Sweat, I took grains from my daily leftover rice and kneaded them, trying to feel the substance and sense the world through my touch. Day after day, the form kept evolving and resulted in a shape of a hill, which accumulated a lot of my efforts. It made feel that every grain costs a sweat. If I say that Fountain is the energy released from my body, Every Grains Costs A Drop of Sweat is the source of daily energy for our bodies. It happens in our daily lives but we don’t carefully observe it. 

DE：当我走近这两件作品，我觉得它们可能是用某种蜡或者粘土做成的。但也许不是，因为它们有一种非常污秽和有微生物寄生的感觉。它们的材质让我充满了好奇心，同时也有一丝反感。我想，在你的创作过程（细腻、静思、尊重）和作品的表象(令观者心里不舒服）之间也存在着一种对比。

曹雨:哈哈，你对感受的描述非常精彩。的确，我记得曾经有人看到《粒粒皆辛苦》的第一反应是，觉得那是一堆鼻屎。其实《粒粒皆辛苦》这个作品并不是要给通过材料的奇特来吸引人，也不是要刻意去对比，对于我来说它依然是米粒，是粮食，是粒粒皆辛苦。作品《艺术家制造》的材质会让人头脑中产生很多疑问，但是令我印象深刻的是，有一位女观者在凝视这件作品的同时嗅到了它散发出来的奶味，她说顿时觉得双眼酸涩湿润，她说很感动，想哭。

DE: When I approached them, I thought they could be made from some kind of wax or modeling clay. But maybe not, because they've got this very grubby and biological presence. The thought of what they might be filled me with curiosity and a bit of revulsion at the same time. I think there's a contrast between your process (tender, thoughtful, reverent) and the physicality of the work, which makes viewers squeamish. 

CY: Ha, Ha. Your description of your experience is brilliant. Indeed, I remember someone’s first reaction to Every Grain Costs A Drop of Sweat was that those were a pile of boogers. Actually, Every Grain Costs A Drop of Sweat is not intended to impress people with the singularity of the material, or to draw any forceful contrast. To me, they’re still rice, still grains, and they still cost drops of sweat. The material of Made in Artist generates many questions in the viewers’ mind. The most memorable moment was that a female viewer smelt the milky smell when gazing at the work – she said her eyes immediately became wet. She told me, she was moved, she wanted to cry.

DE： 关于《艺术家制造》，为什么有些团块是浅色的，有些是深色的？

曹雨:这些块状物是由18升乳汁炼制而来的。由于18升母乳是分两次进行熬制的，不同的熬制时间和温度致使其中的乳糖呈现出深浅不一的颜色。

DE: Regarding Made in Artist, why are some light and some dark?

CY: These pieces are distilled from 18 litres of human milk, which were made in two batches. The differences in timing and temperature resulted in difference colors.

DE： 你对于女性身体的刻画有哪些普遍性的看法——无论是对于高雅艺术还是在流行文化中？

曹雨:  我并不偏爱某个题材或某种材料。用到女性身体，只是因为哺乳期的身体是我彼时的生活经验及身体经验的集中体现。

     身为女人，其实未必就必须用女性身体去做作品。我的生活感受和经验是自身创作的直接来源，因此在我的生活中切身感受到并引发兴趣和思考的东西，都会给予我艺术的营养，都有可能进入我的艺术。

DE: Do you have any general thoughts about depictions of the female body, either in high art or popular culture?

CY: I don’t have a preference for any particular topic or material. The reason I use the woman’s body is just because it is the symbol of my life experience and body experience at that time.

Being a woman doesn’t necessarily mean you have to use women’s bodies to create your works. My life experiences and feelings are the direct source of my creation, so anything I feel in my life, anything that inspires me or evoke my thoughts, can nurture me as an artist and can possibly find ways into my art.

CaoYu was born in 1988，Liaoning Province，China. She got her Bachelor's Degree and Master's Degree from the Sculpture Department of the Central Academy of fine arts. Now she lives and works in Beijing.

Cao Yu's works include sculptures, installations, and images. Recently, Cao Yu's works at the Postgraduate Graduation Exhibition in China Central Academy of Fine Arts attracted great attention and interest of the audiences. In her works, we can not see any context and grand narrative traces, but she was obviously in a new way of questioning issued on art and significance.Involving body and self, expansion of media and the role of language, rational judgment and the phenomena of consciousness, artistic experience and the viewer experience, and so on.

"Cao Yu's use her body as a tool to reveal the relationship between the media and art, art and language, language and experience. She uses and transforms her body as a medium / material. Not only creates a physical sense of pleasure, but also constructs a kind of body’s emotional communication."

- Huang Du

PuZaoSi Collective - Delay Distortions and Color Alterations

Visual Installation Artists

Interview on July 10 at Steam Hostel, Chengdu. Transcription and translation from Chinese by Angela Li.

KL: Please introduce yourselves. What do you do, what have you done prior to the collective, and what brought you here.

Greg: I’m Greg, I go by the VJ name of PLGRM. I’ve been in and out of Chengdu since 2012. I originally came here for audio engineering work, which was my major in school. I wasn’t really attracted to the music recording scene here, so that’s when I realized that I could use my technical knowledge to start VJing. It’s all just signal distribution. Once I proved myself as a capable VJ and started getting gigs, I realized I could do a lot more with my computer, like interactive installations, which attracted me way more than staying out at a club until 4am and coming home smelling like stale beer and cigarettes. I was definitely more attracted to the art side of things. Mintown, an art space in Chengdu, has been integral in my development as a digital installation artist.

K: I used to be a photographer, shooting extreme sports, gigs and doing studio work. Later on I moved towards filming short videos. I’m also working on promoting vintage motorcycle culture. I’m responsible for filming clips and documenting events in the collective.

Mian: I usually do VJ work and stage design. Right now I’m leaning towards filming.

KL: You’re a collective, so tell us how that started, how long you’ve been going, what sort of ideologies do you have for it.

Greg: So… our collective is called Puzaosi and how long have we been going…? Not very long. Relatively recently. We all come from party/art installation backgrounds. We recognized each other’s talents and decided that the best way to land bigger gigs was to get together and collaborate and be able to divide the burden. As for ideology… that’s a good one. I myself like to focus on interactivity and multimedia. We like to push for subliminal technology, like very technical pieces that have an artistic exterior. The guts of the pieces are a bunch of wires and stuff but on the outside it’s very smooth and natural aesthetic.

KL: How does each individual role work within the group? Do you collaborate oneverything completely or do you each have different strengths that you tend to focus on and bring to the body.

Mian: We’re divided into several sections right now: live visuals, photography, installation, and production. We are currently experimenting with different methods of fusing these sections to see what we can create. How about we each talk about we do on our own?

K: I’m focused on doing photography and video production. We’ve done videography for parties and music festivals, and the more underground stuff, like bands and extreme sports.

Mian: As for live visuals, we’ve done festivals and various things, like filming music videos. We want to get together and do something that reflects our creative and design ideas, something meaningful. Like a series. When we’re in charge of different aspects of the series the work can be delegated more meticulously.

Greg: We have our own roles for everything. So when we’re together, it’s like an assembly line.

KL: How does that process actually form? Obviously, you guys realized that you’d be getting bigger gigs if you collaborated. Is that process simple? Does it just happened or is it something that needs to be negotiated frequently?

Mian: Our idea for this was actually quite complex. Chengdu is a very accommodating place, so we get along very well when we’re collaborating. The most important part is taking the time to adapt to each other’s creative process. We get along pretty well.

Greg: I mean, we’re still relatively new. Our combined history is pretty extensive, but we’re still figuring out how to work with each other. It’s been relatively easy, I’d say. Of course, the negotiations don’t come between us as much as it does between us and what we’re being asked to do by corporate sponsors.

KL: Is that ever a compromise? Doing corporate gigs?

Greg: Yeah, when you work for a corporate gig, you do have to make sacrifices. Mostly, it’s about fitting the image, so there’s a whole round of “Is this appropriate?” “Cut this out, cut that out.” We are looking forward to doing something completely under our control though. Right now we’re pretty busy with work because there are so many festivals going on. Towards the end of the year, we want to concentrate on our own work and create something that we might present to someone and say, “Do you want to fund our project?” But yeah, if you’re doing a corporate thing you have to match an image. I remember I had a gig for an American DJ in Chengdu. So this DJ came in with a whole set of video clips and was like, “Only play these clips.” So I said, “Ok I can do that.” Halfway through the gig I started adding my own effects, like some delay distortions and color alterations, just because it was getting dull switching between a limited supply of clips. His manager then came up to me and said, “That is not his brand, can you please just stick to the clips?”

Mian: Of course. That kind of work is providing a service. If you do work for someone else, you have to negotiate with the other party regularly to understand their needs, after which you try to stuff your ideas into the work bit by bit. It’s a lot of back and forth. A lot of it depends on how you negotiate. In the end only 30-40% of your ideas will make it. This is why we want to get together and do something we’re into and have a say over.

KL: You talked about looking forward to putting together something that you really want to do and getting funding for it. What does that project look like? How will you exercise that freedom?

Mian: We haven’t been spending a lot of time communicating and being together lately. However, I have an idea. We all really like Noise Temple, an experimental noise act. The background videos, the installation, the lights, and filming it – it’s a complete and unique project. This is my vision.

Greg: Mian has worked with Noise Temple a lot (she’s the designated VJ for him). His music is very mechanical, I guess. I think a cinematic package where the visuals mimic his music, but also some of our home-brewed visuals can inspire the music he makes, forming this symbiosis. I can’t recall ever seeing a complete experience in Chengdu similar to going to see a movie, getting a ticket, sitting down for ten minutes, and being enveloped in a room of sound and visuals. That’s kind of what we want to go for.

KL: Chengdu seems like an environment that’s very conducive to collaboration. Do collaborative opportunities present themselves frequently?

Greg: I love drawing inspiration from different people through collaborations. It helps keep projects fresh. I’ve worked with Martin a lot. I recently did an led installation in his new space, Berlin Haus, that kind of helps instill a chill mood + atmosphere. It’s relatively simple when you see it, but there was lengthy discussion beforehand about how it should function. Here, you not only have the people, but the spaces and venues for installations. There are plenty of small scenes scattered throughout Chengdu. When I go to a venue I always think about ways of transforming it. They’re all unique. Mintown converted an older section of the city into a small campus of a music venue, art exhibition and marketplace, and a coffee/collaboration space. The Poly Center is this very strange, corporate-looking apartment building, which someone decided to convert into a building full of night clubs on the upper floors.

Mian: It’s a very magical city. The policies here are not as strict and everyone can come here to find their footing and have a good time. You can meet all different kinds of people. The party vibe here is strong. The easiest thing to do, therefore, is collaboration; even just hanging out together could lead to the creation of something cool. I think that’s magical.

KL: Do you think people here embrace newcomers quickly or is there a ‘proof yourself’ process?

Greg: You can definitely find gigs everywhere. People are thirsty for them.

What I’m about to say definitely has two sides to it: the bar to ‘get in’ here is a little low, which is great because it makes it easy for anyone to get started and also terrible because you have to sift through a lot of crap. But if you produce good work, people will recognize it. So I think Chengdu is very inclusive. Speaking of VJing specifically, sometimes two of the bars from Poly Center would ask me to work on the same night, which to me means there aren’t enough creators. It’s definitely easy to enter.

KL: Is Chengdu important to what you do? Is it a place you’re passionate about and see yourself based in? Or would you like to move away and experiment?

Mian: After traveling and living in a bunch of cities, my favorite is still Chengdu. Although cities like Beijing and Shanghai have a lot on offer, that lifestyle seems kinda tiring and the people there seem to keep to themselves, unlike the atmosphere we have here.

Greg: Chengdu’s our home base, for sure. The neighborhood i live in, Yulin, is such a great community. Most buildings there have 7 floors, there aren’t as many high-rises. There’s definitely a tight sense of community. It still has a glimmer of authenticity. Entry into other cities is more difficult, but personally I’d like to consider branching out. Actually I’m pretty sure we all would. You can derive inspiration a change of environment. You can get stagnant staying in one place to long. That being said, Chengdu is definitely headquarters.

KL: The Chinese art scene is not internationally known for mediums like VJ. Do you think when you do consider branching out, Chengdu would be a great selling point? For one, you’re not from one of the major cities. Second, you’re a mix of Chinese and foreigners. Do you think that’s marketable?

Greg: I think people are definitely attracted to what’s coming out of China and often, they can be disappointed. I worked for an art company back in 2012 that was trying to bring Chinese art to Venice. The inter-politics of that company was what ruined it all. We were representing million-dollar artists, but it was just such a huge failure. Part of it was having a very old-style, stale Chinese exhibition. I see cool shit all the time on Facebook or other western sites from creators in like Taiwan. People have no idea what’s going on in China because it isolates itself through various means. Most things that breach the borders are government cleansed. I definitely want to help represent the more independent / freelance / up-and-coming China scene because it’s got shit going on. I guess Chengdu is a selling point, but it’s becoming rapidly more recognizable. And I think that any cross-cultural mixing and collaboration is more marketable, but that’s not really my field of expertise.

KL: Are there limitations for you, Greg? Do people want to see the laowai? Is there an appeal for laowai internationally?

Greg: I don’t feel limited and I hope that people don’t just want to see the laowai. I’ve been part of events before just because i’m foreign and it breaks your soul. At least for me that is, I know other people have no objection because the money is usually decent. Our various backgrounds and diversity allows us to be more critical when forming our ideas and creating a project, which leads to a stronger product and end result.

KL: Since so much technology is involved in this, do you ever have technical problems? When everything goes “BRAAGGGGH”, what’s next?!

Mian: Very often. Usually when the old issue gets solved, a new one pops up. My onlyproblem now is lugging around a large, heavy set of gear. I gotta carry my computer around, which makes me feel 3cm shorter every time.

K: Filming wise it’s usually fine. We always check our equipment beforehand.

Greg: If you do a festival, sometimes there will be an installation crew who knows how everything up exactly as they were told, but lacks deeper knowledge of the equipment. As a VJ, if you request them to try something different, they’ll go, “But we do it this way.” So there’s that struggle. For me it goes deeper than that. I’ve literally plugged in an HDMI cable into my computer that caused my computer to be electrified. I even got minor shocks from touching it. I’m always worried. This LED installation that I’m doing requires a LOT of power, voltages, amps, but some of it requires faith in the people whooriginally wired the facility. My faith gets tested a lot and sometimes a electric shock is enough to rattle that faith.

KL: Are your visuals all computer-generated? Or do you search and find bits of visuals? If so, where do you look?

Mian: Earlier in my career I used a bunch of videos that I’d found. Now I’m trying to move towards using my own visuals, because using other people’s videos brings about some copyright issues. Sometimes, if there’s a commercial event, I have to resort to finding videos because there isn’t enough time for me to make my own. Now there are plenty of platforms and venues that desire and promote independent creativity. We canwork closely with every client and create a customized product.

Greg: I’ve done a tropical themed gig for which I cut material from Planet Earth videos. I recently did a show at Mintown involving a solo piano and the music gave me a nostalgic feel, so I searched Youtube and downloaded a bunch of lo-fi videos of 1950’s suburban life. That type of footage is hard to sync with the music. It’s easier to use software to create premade animations measured by bars so every video clip can be synced to the beat. My favorite method though is to use programming software, either MaxMSP or Touch Designer, which allow me to generate realtime visuals that have some parameters controlled by the music. There are a couple of different ways. It all depends on the event.

K: I usually do live filming and documenting, so most of my stuff is my own. I barely ever use pre-made stuff. 

PuZaoSi are: 刘威，Mian，邓宇健，Greg，卞卡，刀，春崎 

谱造司成立于四川成都，主要涉及舞台美术、视觉包装及装置等领域，与各类型艺术家，音乐人，品牌，音乐节及及独立派对厂牌有深度合作。

email: vaayaa@me.com

mobile：18502100291

Xu Zhengyue 徐正月 – Small Parts in the Social Machine

Artist

Email interview with Deva Eveland translated by Jacques Qu

DV: 你能描述一下这件作品的创作过程吗？你是不是拍摄了你的朋友？是否在地铁里架设了摄像机？你是如何处理这些录像片段的？

徐正月: 我的创作时常关注人本身以及人与空间的关系。最初吸引我的是行走这个行为，我观察生活中人们行走的姿势、节奏都不一样，非常有趣，而且我感受到这个背后暗含着很多值得发掘的信息。后来我开始尝试带着摄影机在街道上拍摄人们行走的姿势。拍摄空间的选择很随机，比如有学校门口、商业区、地铁通道、居住社区、不同的城区等，我并不想制定一个规则，只能拍哪个地方的人或者只能拍什么样的人，应该是比较平等并且跟随自己的感觉的。拍摄对象也都是经过我的陌生人，其中有两个人是我的朋友，虽然我们面对面经过的时间很短，但我用镜头记录下他们，这也是件很浪漫的事。接下来的工作是，我把每个人行走的视频片段，分别用Photoshop软件制作成了二维动画，一帧一帧进行绘制，最后合成一个行走循环视频。这其实是把行走的动作符号化的过程。

DE: Can you describe your process in making the work? Did you film your friends? Set up a video camera in the subway? How did you manipulate the footage?

XZ: When I’m at work, I always pay attention to human itself and the relationship between human and space. First I was intrigued by the action of walking – I observed how the posture and tempo of people’s walking differ from one to another, which is very interesting, and I sensed in it rich information to be mined. Later I started to carry video-camera to tape people’s walking postures. The selection of location is random, for example, at school gate, in commercial areas, in the subway tunnel, in community, in various parts of the city, etc. I don’t want to set a rule - like you can only tape certain kind of people in certain locations; instead, I believe all subjects are equal and I go with the flow. All the subjects are the strangers who were walking past me; two of them happened to be my acquaintances, and although it was only a moment that we faced each other I taped them well, a quite romantic episode. What I did next was that I took out the video clips of each person’s walking and turned them into 2-D animation using Photoshop, drawing the picture frame by frame and eventually combining into a loop video of walking. This process is actually the symbolization of the action of walking.

DE: 你选择用来展示这件作品的边缘性空间位置让我很感兴趣。楼梯底下，承重的柱子，走廊墙壁的高处，通风口……在视觉上，它们都是博物馆内未加利用的空间。你能讲一下你是如何选择这些位置的吗？

徐正月: 我平时就对空间特别感兴趣，喜欢去感受不同的空间环境，但这次展览最初要求每个人只能使用3米×3米的方形空间，这让我觉得很限制。后来我开始尝试各种办法突破这种限制，我带着一台微型投影仪在美术馆的各种空间投射行人影像，比如像洗手间、楼梯间、水泥柱子上、很高的墙面上，垃圾箱等，当时我非常兴奋，而且我感受到这些地方都不是常规的展示空间，从来没有人在楼梯底下或者美术馆的通风口展示过作品，但又是我们生活空间的一部分，同时又能和行走这个概念很好的吻合，我决定要利用美术馆这些被忽略的建筑空间。我花很多时间待在美术馆里面，想用我的感官再次去感受这个空间，并且思考如何将我的影像作品和展示空间更好的结合。在这期间，我思考最多的就是影像作品和空间和观众（人）三者之间的关系，这也是我作品所要探讨的最核心的问题。最终呈现出来展示效果中，一条绵延的行人去适应和突破建筑空间各种结构，和周围的空间发生关系，现实中给人以一种的感觉投射，并对生活中人和空间关系产生隐喻。而且，这件作品具有非常强的可变性，不同的空间会产生不同的效果。

DE: I'm interested in the marginal spaces you chose to display this work. The underside of a staircase, a support column, high up on a corridor wall, vents...they're visually unused spaces of the museum. Can you talk about how you chose to locate your work there?

XZ: I always take a special interest in space; I am always pleased to sense difference space environments. However, this exhibit at first only gave each participant a 3m x 3m square space, which made me feel limited. Then I tried various ways to break such limitations. I brought in a portable projector to project images of pedestrians onto various spaces in the gallery, for example the restroom, staircase, cement pillars, walls high up, garbage cans, etc. I was very excited at that time, and I sensed that these places are not conventional spaces for exhibition and no one has displayed their work under the stairs or on a gallery’s vent, but they’re parts of our living space and a great match to the concept of walking. So I decided to utilize these ignored space in the building. I spent a lot of time in the gallery, hoping to feel this space using my own senses and to explore how to best combine my visual art with the space of exhibition. During this period, the topic I thought of most was the relationship between the visual art, space and visitor (people), which is the core topic I want to touch through my work. In the eventual visual display, an endless array of walkers try to adapt and to break through various structure of space and to establish a linkage to the surrounding space - in reality it projects your feeling on it and creates a metaphor for the relationship between people and space in daily life. Moreover, this work has very strong flexibility and would yield different effect in a different space. 

DE: 你有兴趣在博物馆或者画廊的户外展示自己的作品吗？如果是，你理想的场所是哪里？

徐正月: 我在今年7月份在在北京的朝阳大悦城展示过我的作品，这是一个大型商业空间，每天顾客川流不息，我的作品和公共空间配合进行展示。我有兴趣让我的作品进入到公共空间或人们的生活空间展示，但我也希望能尝试在一些静谧、神圣或者更慢节奏的空间展示，比如自然的空间或者教堂，我想会产生出一些新的感受。如果是博物馆或者画廊的户外展示，可能在太阳下山后才能实现。

DE: Would you be interested in displaying this work outside of a museum/gallery context? If so, what would be your ideal location?

XZ: I showed my work in Beijing Chaoyang Joy City in July this year. This is a large commercial space with huge traffic. My work is displayed with the public space. I’m interested to have my work enter the public space or people’s living space, but I also hope to try some more quiet, sacred, slow-tempo spaces, like spaces in nature or classrooms. I think that would generate some new feelings. If I want to display in the outdoor part of a museum or a gallery, I may have to wait till the sunset.

DE: 这件作品有些地方很值得玩味，尤其是人们从通风口消失的方式。就像在观察一队队蚂蚁。我注意到小孩子们（包括我的女儿）很喜欢和它互动。你预想到过会有这类的观者参与吗？

徐正月: 我在设计空间时，有思考观众观看作品的最佳位置，像是观众的行走路线是什么，或我的作品如何配合观众的观展路线，然后让我的影像配合美术馆的空间，如通风口或是楼梯底下，并产生新的意义和联想。但现场能有这么多的互动是我没想过的，也没想到会有很多小朋友来观看展览，我在现场看到好多观众都和影像进行互动，这让我很高兴。

DE: There's something very playful about the work, especially the way the people disappear in and out of vents. It's like watching columns of ants. I've noticed that small children (my daughter included) liked interacting with it. Did you expect this participatory aspect?

XZ: When I designed the space, I did think about the best observation spot for the visitors, and their walking route, or how my work should match visitor’s walking route. Then I let my visual images fit into the spaces in the gallery, like at the vent or under the stairs, so as to generate new meanings and imagination. But I wasn’t expecting that much interaction or that many kids at the exhibition. I witnessed many visitors interacting with the images, which made me happy.    

DE: 我也在想里面是否隐藏了一些更阴暗的东西。一排行进的人可能暗示着苦工。他们看上去像蚂蚁的一个原因是因为他们都缺乏个人特征。仿佛我们在看着物品通过X-射线安检，这让我联想到我们总是在监控之下，无论我们是否意识到这一点。你也会有这些想法吗？

徐正月: 这件作品的灵感和创作元素就是来自于我生活的这个社会环境，这里的生活节奏特别快，人们像是社会机器里的一个零件每天都在快速的运转，无限循环，似乎人本身的天性在逐渐丧失。我的影像作品也有循环的因素，每个人的行走都是循环的，我想用这种无限循环行走的动作隐喻当下生活的现状，一排行人钻进通风口，消失在一个未知的空间中，像是在修苦行。我并不认为这是一种悲观的看法，反而去正视现实，才能反观人自身最原始最本真的天性。

在绘制行人走路时，我都会尽可能的保留每个人特有的走路姿势、节奏、速度，保有动作的生动性，呈现出每个行者不同的身份和隐藏的故事，其实每个人的特征还是比较明显的，但通风口墙壁的光线比较亮，所以我必须把影像叠加3层，才能看清楚人像，也会出现剪影的效果。虽然每个人有各自的特征，但影像展示时，我选择用小比例的行人，制造出一条绵延的人流，把行走作为人的一种共性行为展现出来，而当你仔细观察时，会发现个体生命往往会在集体的共性行为中发出既生动又微弱的个性特征，这样的关系是最吸引我的地方。

DE: I also wonder if there's something darker? Rows of marching people might imply drudgery. Part of what makes them ant-like is that they're fairly featureless. It's like we're watching items pass through an x-ray machine, making me think about the way we're always under surveillance, whether or not we realize it. Were you thinking along these lines?

XZ: The inspiration and elements of this work came from the social environment that I live in. Here the rhythm of life is very fast, and people are like small parts in the social machine operating day after day in an endless loop, as if our human nature is getting lost. There is also the element of the loop in my work - every person walks in loops, and I want to use this walking in endless loops as a metaphor for the current status of life. An array of walking people enter the vent and disappear in the unknown space, as the practice of asceticism. I don’t think this is a pessimistic perspective, but rather an effort to face the truth, in order to see the most primitive and the truest nature of human.

When I drew pictures of people walking, I tried to capture the unique posture of each person, the rhythm, pace, to keep the vividness of their movement and to show their unique identity and the stories behind them. In fact, the traits of each person are pretty clear, but due to the strong lighting on the wall of the vent I must put 3 layers of images to make them sharp, creating a silhouette effect. Despite each person’s uniqueness, when the images were shown, I chose to make the walkers smaller to create an endless human line, showing the walk as the common action of people. But when you observe carefully, you would find that individual life would show a slight but vivid personality in the common group action. Such relationship is what attracts me most.

DE: 你在创作这件作品时头脑中想到了其他哪些艺术家？

徐正月: 是的，我有了解一些曾经运用行走概念创作的艺术家，比如以色列的艺术家Michal Rovner，所以我也有意的去挖掘自己要表达的想法和探索自己作品的艺术语言。

DE: What other artists did you have in the back of your head when you were making this work?

XZ: Yes, I know several artists who applied the concept of walking in their work, like Michal Rovner from Israel. Therefore I purposefully tried to find my own ideas and to explore my own art language.

DE: 你目前在进行任何新的创作吗？

徐正月: 我目前有两个正在进行的合作项目，一个是和一位德国艺术家创作的作品，我们分别利用自己作品中的元素创作，尝试将两者相融合，构成新的思考和意义。另一个是和一个互联网APP合作，这个APP是一个从公众搜集各种有趣的画作的平台，所以我用行走的概念和他们合作，当然这件作品中所有的行走角色都是公众创作的，我再进行视频制作和展示空间设计，我认为这是一种非常有趣的合作方式。

对于我的下一件作品，我目前也有一些构想，比如加入实时影像捕捉的技术，影像里的人正是在美术馆观看展览的观众，这样参与感会更强，但这需要很多次实验。

DE: Are you working on any new projects?

XZ: I’m currently working on two collaborative projects. One is with a German artist. We work with our own elements respectively and then try to merge them to reach new ideas and meanings. The other is a collaboration with an internet App. This App is a platform which collects from the public all sorts of interesting drawings, so I work with them on the concept of walking. Of course all the walking characters in this work are created by the public, and then I will make the video and design the space for display. This kind of collaboration is a lot of fun.

Beyond that, I have some rough ideas, like using the technology of real-time image capturing. Then the people in the images would be the very people who are viewing the exhibition in the gallery. That would bring more sense of participation, but would need a lot of experimentation first.

DE: 你是什么时候、因为什么原因想成为一个艺术家的？你对于艺术的认知经历了怎样的转变？

徐正月: 我从小开始学习画画，11岁时去了一间美术学校学习中国画、素描，直到报考大学都是在接受很传统的美术教育。大学期间我开始接触影像和动画，这让我的表达有了更多的选择，那时我会有意识的去了解当代艺术的作品。2013年我进入到中央美术学院学习，接触到更多的艺术表现手法，并且对艺术也有了更深的思考和理解。让我真正想成为一个艺术家，是当我创作时，我所感受到的快乐、美好和寻找自我的过程，当然也有痛苦的时候，但所有的这些感受是我非常愿意去享受的，这个时候我想，是的，我要成为一个艺术家。

其实，艺术最吸引我的地方就是她的无限可能性，她的新鲜感是随处存在的。从小时候的趣味到现在成为工作和生活，这么长的时间里，我对艺术的认知一定有很大的变化。我想让艺术融入到我的生活中，并从这里获取灵感去表达我的思考和想法，通过作品和人们、和我生活的当下社会建立一种联接，并且在这个过程中去寻找自己、感受自己。这就是我目前对艺术或者我做的事情的感受，在未来一定会有新的感受，这是非常有趣的事情，但不是件容易的事情。

DE: When and how did you decide to become an artist? Has your idea of art changed along the way?

XZ: I started to learn painting as a kid. When I was 11, I went to an art school to learn Chinese painting and drawing. I accepted very traditional art education all the way to college. In college I got in touch with images and animation, which gave me more options for expressing myself. At that time, I particular wanted to learn about modern art. In 2013 I was admitted into China Central Academy of Fine Arts and learned more artistic expression techniques, with a deepened understanding of art. What made me want to be an artist is the joy, happiness and the process of self-discovery when I am at work. There are also moments of pain, for sure, but I’m willing to experience all these feelings. At those moments, I thought, yes, I want to be an artist. 

In fact, the most attractive aspect of art is its infinite possibilities. The freshness is everywhere. From my early interest as a kid to my job and life now, over such a long period, my view of art has changed significantly. I want art to enter my life and to get inspiration to express my ideas and my thinking, to create a linkage between my work and people and the society I live in, and to discover myself and enjoy myself along the way. This is my feeling toward art or the things I do. I’m sure I’ll have new feelings in the future. This is a very interesting thing, but not an easy one.

DE: 你有什么想要补充的吗？

徐正月: 我非常喜欢这些问题，很感谢有这样的交流。

DE: Is there anything else you'd like to add?

XZ: I really like your questions. Thanks for having this discussion with me. 

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